Safe Speed Forums

It continues to amaze what a stupid attitude (IMHO) we have in this country to 3-lane single carriageways. It seems the only time we are permitted to have 3 lanes marked on a road is on a gradient (usually a steep one). Often the downhill lane is given double white lines to prevent overtaking but on straight sections with better visibility dotted lines to permit overtaking in both directions. Neil Jeffreys will no doubt have something to say about the Heads of the Valleys road on this subject.
In the past, wide roads were marked as 3-lane to allow overtaking in both directions but no longer. The modern method of putting dotted lines down the centre of a 24 foot wide road simply allows careless drivers to overtake in both directions at the same time at great risk to everybody around at the time. Why not mark such roads for overtaking in one direction for say half a mile and then in the other direction with double white lines protecting opposing traffic? This would surely be safer than the present free-for-all. They do it in France, for instance, why not in the UK?

This has recently been done on the A303 Ilminster bypass which was previously a wide two-lane road.

Also it is being widely adopted in Ireland where expansion of capacity is needed, but there isn't the justification for a dual carriageway.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

It would be even better (but maybe too complicated) to have an intermediate solution (say solid white line but with a short break every so often) where overtaking priority has to be given to one direction or the other but crossing the line is permitted where there's no oncoming traffic in the middle lane.

I believe that the reason for the removal of 3-lane roads layouts was on the grounds of a perceived safety problem, can't recall where I saw it whough .
It was thought that, if you give drivers the opportunity to overtake in the face of an oncoming vehicle trying to do the same thing in the middle lane, chances as they will and cause a head-on crash. In other owrds, leave the door open for people to be stupid and they'll accept it.
The thing is, I don't believe there's any evidence to suggest that this is what actually happened.
I'm with Observer on this one, although I feel sure Paul may disagree , as IMHO it's a better option than the current arrangement of creating wide roads with room to overtake down the middle. Drivers tend to treat these arrangements in different ways, some keeping well left to let others pass, whilst others think that because its a single track road they can 'rightfully' adopt a position that spitefully prevents others from overtaking . I even witnessed some pillock (on the Shrewsbury bypass) feigning a right-turn signal with a move towards the centre of the road as he was about to be overtaken by a faster vehicle when there was another car coming the other way!

I used to enjoy 3 lane single carrageways with a 'suicide' centre lane. I fondly recall the A299 near Margate. But statistically I now know that these roads had a pretty awful safety record.

There are a lot of wide single carriageways around here. Despite the possibility of making a third centre lane, virtually no one does so, and I think that's right. 'Three abreast' overtakes are far riskier and best avoided on all road types (including those with a double white line in a 2 lane / 1 lane arrangement).

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Paul Smith
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The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Ernest M and I recall when the A591 northbound was 3 lanes "free for all" after Plantation Bridge.

NO we dont want that again...

Also I used to know a chap from Bolton who remembers when the East Lancs Road was 3 lanes (A580) - he said and I quote, "It was the biggest killer ever"

It was before Scams...

I can see some logic for this position but, as you would say yourself, please show me the evidence.

[edited to add]

The counter-argument being that specific provision for overtaking would help to alleviate the problems caused by 40 mph speed limited HGVs.

Cross purposes perhaps.

As a driver I try to time my moves to avoid three abreast on all road types. This means that some lateral escape space is maintained at all times. It's not always possible - sometimes on a busy motorway you can't wait in L3 for the elephant racing in L1 and L2 to complete before you pass - but at least 19 out of 20 three abreast situations can be avoided with a little bit of planning and a throttle adjustment.

As a road designer I wouldn't see three lane roads as automatically bad. I'd favour 2/1 arrangements for single carrriageways over 1/1/1, but in many cases I'd prefer 1/1 to 2/1. Stretches of 2/1 especially on uphills seem quite a good way to help queues to clear.

As far as risk is concerned, I was talking about real-time drivers' space management rather than crash stats.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The Shrewsbury bypass connects with the A5, which is notorious for being too wide to be single lanes, and too narrow to be dualled. I'm sure you know that drivers get up to all kinds of tricks on the road between Shrewsbury and Llangollen. That road needs sorting out, fast! Trouble is, its a new road, built about 20 years ago or so. What a waste of money!

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If attitudes such as yours are widespread, it's small wonder that casualty rates are so stubbornly reluctant to come down.

An important point to make in this thread is that three-lane roads are generally provided to improve capacity.

The question is not whether they are intrinsically safer than two-lane roads, but how can three-lane roads be made acceptably safe.

I'm sure that alternating 2+1 sections with double white lines are much safer than allowing a free-for-all on wide single-carriageway roads such as the A49 Shrewsbury bypass. I can confirm Rigpig's observation that overtaking "down the middle" is general here (indeed, I have - cautiously - done it myself ).

There are some busy single-carriageway roads, such as the A17 between Newark and King's Lynn, where overtaking opportunities are all too rare, and alternating 2+1 sections would bring about a great reduction in journey times and driver frustration.

In many circumstances I see no objection to the markings which give one direction priority, but also allow overtaking in the opposite direction. However, these may be dangerous on very busy roads.

I suspect much of the problem with the old "suicide lane" roads arose from the practice of continuing the three lanes around bends. If the three lanes were confined to stretches with continuous sightlines the potential risk would be much reduced.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

The A66 Darlington bypass is one of these problem roads (single carriageway, 24 feet wide, NSL, four roundabouts in 5 miles). It has 70 mph limit dual carriageways at either end (to be pedantic there is a half-mile of narrower single carriageway at the western end).
I used to keep well to the left at all times because speeding and overtaking in both directions at the same time is rife. There have been a number of fatal head-on crashes as the presence of an overtaker in the middle of the road does not always deter drivers intent on overtaking in the opposite direction. The IAM tell me that I should keep about 3 feet from the white line on the edge of the road but move over to the left if my safety is compromised by overtakers. A few drivers position their vehicles adjacent to the middle line. IMHO this is potential suicide, on this road! The most dangerous section (on a long curve over a railway bridge) has been given solid double white lines with hatching which deters most drivers from overtaking.
The evidence from my observations is therefore that 2+1 would be less dangerous than merely having dotted white lines in the centre.

The old suicide lanes seem to be making a bit of a comeback, in the form of large long hatched centre areas. The only real difference is that people entering a hatched are are generally those who have thought about it and the muppets think they're not allowed to use it, wheras with suicide lanes, the muppets would think they are allowed to use it since it's not got solid white lines, of course no-one else will be coming the other way, it's my lane!

I like the idea of only one way overtaking on corners, perhaps this could be combined with the central hatched area setup by putting solid white lines on the inside edge of the hatched area on a corner. (I suggest inside because visability is generally a little better from the outside and thus they will be easier to use.)

Old BiB pal of my Dad's - Senior chap in Traffic (Manchester) in 1960s He remembers the A6 in Westhoughton/Bolton area being a 3-laner and it also had a nasty accident record.




Believe it is now a normal NSL stretch - accidents fairly rare. Most occur when when it passes though a built -up area with large housing estate and several pubs.... Speed limit is 30 mph. Speed camera somewhere along it.

On the other side of the A6 NSL stretch - where again it reverts to 30 mph. There is another very densely built up area - factory, council estates on each side, three public house, one shopping centre, two sites belonging to one large comprehensive school. one RC secondary school and 5 primary schools in this concentrated area of dense activity....NO accident recorded. THREE Smiley Sids along the road....

So - which saves more lives and controls drivers? Based on my brother's description - I'd say the flashing signs...

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