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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 00:17 
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One article on BBC news - How Sheppey avoided loss of life
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazin ... r-23990750
Ultimate cure is http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-23984059

"Any reduction in speed limit would have to be backed up by evidence to show it has a worthwhile safety improvement and would need to be enforced by the police to be effective."

But on TV today there calls for cameras on the bridge, ( I can't find the article as it seems t have gone from BBC news/Text).

[Moved this from here]

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 03:28 
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Mirror wrote:
Sheppey crossing crash: 'Miracle' as no-one dies in worst pile-up for 16 years
5 Sep 2013 22:10

Witnesses blamed “idiots” for driving at speeds up to 70mph and failing to use their fog lights in visibility of just 10 yards
Scene on the London bound carriageway of the Sheppey Bridge Crossing Scene on the London bound carriageway of the Sheppey Bridge Crossing

This was the scene of utter carnage today after 130 vehicles were involved in the UK’s worst road crash for 16 years.
Police said it was “miraculous” no one died in the high-speed pile-up in thick fog.
But eight people were seriously injured and 27 others taken to hospital.
Witnesses blamed “idiots” for driving at speeds up to 70mph and failing to use their fog lights in visibility of just 10 yards on the Isle of Sheppey crossing in Kent.
One told of an eerie silence in the fog, punctuated only by the sound of crashing vehicles over 10 minutes soon after 7am.
But another told how a quick-thinking lorry driver may have saved lives by blocking an approach road to the bridge.

Describing the drama, driver David Ingram said: “People were going far too fast, overtaking me at high speed.
“People coming on to the island in the opposite direction were waving their arms and flashing their lights like mad to try and slow them down.
"Those going too fast just ploughed straight into it. It’s carnage.”

View gallery Jim Bennett

Sheppey Crossing crash

Martin Stammers, 45, told how he and son Jay, 18, were nearly killed.
The dad-of-five, from Minster, Isle of Sheppey, said: “It was so foggy you couldn’t even see the tail lights of the car in front of you.
"I was driving in the outside lane when suddenly ahead of me I saw a car blocking my lane. I braked hard and swerved to miss it.
"That was the beginning of the pile-up – I was the last car to make it through unscathed. We were five seconds from, I would say, near death.”
Martin pulled up further down the road and ran back.

He added: “All you could hear was the screeching of car tyres and the thudding, which was endless. It must have been going on for 10 minutes.
"What we saw was just sickening. There were cars up in the air, cars under lorries, cars squashed between cars.”
Another driver, Chris Buckingham, told how a hero lorry driver saved lives.
He said: “He went down to a roundabout on the approach and blocked it off to stop more motorists coming on to the road.
"I’d like to shake his hand because he must have saved some lives.”
Ex-police driver John Butler described the bridge as a death trap due to a blind spot.
He said he realised just days ago when his daughter’s car broke down and he drove to find her.

John added: “I almost drove into her because there is a blind spot as you cross the top of the bridge southbound due to a long sweeping curve.
"Anyone driving over in fog would not have stood a chance.”

The Highways Agency insisted the 4,100ft-long bridge, which is 115ft at its highest point, had a good safety record.
South East Coast Ambulance Service confirmed 35 people were taken to six hospitals.
A further 200 were assessed at the scene by paramedics.
Nine fire engines arrived at the scene with 30 ambulances and six people were cut free from their cars.

Kent Police launched an investigation as Chief Inspector Andy Reeves said it was “truly miraculous” no one was killed.
The AA warned insurers could face a £6million bill.
Boss Edmund King said: “I’d say drivers going too fast in fog and the design of bridge probably contributed to the number of vehicles involved.”
He said it was Britain’s worst crash since March 1997 when a 160-vehicle pile-up killed three people on the M42.
Do you know the hero lorry driver? Call our newsdesk free on 0800 282 591 or email mirrornews@mirror.co.uk.

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I am amazed that I have heard so little on the news about this ! Perhaps I have been working too hard ! :(
It sound like the bridge has a problem with a 'blind spot' but that ought to be making drivers slow to ensure whatever is beyond the section, they can potentially slow and stop for.
Whilst stopping for events on the motorway is unusual it can happen and all travellers must allow for it and travel responsibly! :)

Google link to Isle of Sheppey location : https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=camera ... 77998&z=12

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 04:02 
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BBC News Magazine By Tom de Castella wrote:
How Sheppey avoided loss of life
By Tom de Castella BBC News Magazine 6 September 2013 Last updated at 15:40

The Sheppey Crossing pile-up involved 130 vehicles colliding in thick fog at high speed. Even worse, the crash took place on a bridge with no hard shoulder. Some commentators have said it was a miracle that no-one died.

Some witnesses said the pile up went on for 10 minutes and that cars were heading into the crash zone at 60-70mph.
At least 60 people were injured, of whom 35 required hospital treatment. Eight of them were seriously injured. But amazingly no-one was killed.

The vehicles were travelling fast. The speed limit was 70mph for this dual carriageway bridge, higher even than bridges that are wider. The Dartford Crossing is four lanes rather than dual carriageway yet the speed limit is only 50mph.
Previous incidents in the fog involving multiple vehicles have led to fatalities.
In 1991 10 people were killed after 51 vehicles crashed into each on the eastbound carriageway of the M4.
Three people died in 1997 after a 160 car pile-up on the M42 at Bromsgrove.

In 1984, nine people died after 26 vehicles collided on the M25 near Clacket Lane.
All these accidents occurred in fog. And in 2011 seven people died in a crash on the M5 after smoke from a fireworks display caused poor visibility on the motorway.
After the Sheppey accident, Kent Police's Assistant Chief Constable Rob Price said it was "a miracle" there were no life-threatening injuries. It is too early to say how no-one died, a police spokesman says.
One of the key factors in fatalities is whether there are heavy goods vehicles (HGV) that cannot stop in time, says Edmund King, president of the AA. After the Bromsgrove crash an HGV driver was convicted of dangerous driving. The sheer weight of a 44-tonne truck gives car passengers little chance when hit at speed.

“Start Quote
The miracle is that there wasn't an HGV ploughing into the back of everyone”

Edmund King President of the AA
"When you look at the M42 crash, the thing that killed people was the HGV ploughing into the back of vehicles and basically crushing them," says King.
A Kent Police spokesman says that two car transporters - one empty - and two HGVs are thought to have been involved in the collision.
From the pictures, it appears they were able to stop without causing too much damage, says King. "The miracle is that there wasn't an HGV ploughing into the back of everyone [at high speed]."

It has been reported that a quick-thinking lorry driver blocked the approach to the bridge to prevent any more cars from entering the crash zone.
The second crucial factor is how much safer cars are today as opposed to 10 or 15 years ago.
The EuroNCAP (new car assessment programme) system - better known as the star safety ratings - has put the onus on manufacturers to improve car safety beyond minimum standards.
Motoring journalist Quentin Willson thinks the word miracle is unnecessary. For him it's all about the design. "In the old days if you'd been in a Cortina you would have gone through the windscreen. The engine would have folded." Nowadays the chassis is much tougher and this is unlikely to happen, he says.

There has been a 50% reduction in death and serious injury for car passengers over the past decade, says Matthew Avery, head of research at Thatcham, the research body that tests cars for the EuroNCAP star ratings
"There are two ways of getting killed in a crash - you can get crushed or have forces exerted on the body that are too great to bear," he says.
Sheppey Bridge The layout of the bridge may have contributed to the scale of the accident

Car manufacturers have improved safety features in relation to this. A safety cage now envelopes the cabin, stopping passengers from being crushed. There are crushable zones around it to take away the energy from the crash.
Previously, drivers would be at risk of having their legs or feet crushed as the cabin would give way and pedals come towards the driver, Avery says. Today that shouldn't happen as the interior will remain intact.
Seatbelts have load limiters, which give a little, thus reducing the forces on the body at high speed braking.
There are more airbags. Side airbags protect the thorax and body. Curtain airbags fill the space where the window is and protect the head. Head restraints go forward to help protect against whiplash.
The bridge was probably a contributory factor, increasing the scale of the pile-up, King says. Cars coming up to the apex may not have been able to see the density of the fog on the other side.

But the central reservation and side barriers on the bridge "did their job" King says. They prevented vehicles from plunging off the side or into oncoming traffic on the opposite carriageway.
In the future, the scale of multiple-vehicle pile ups will be radically cut by technology, Avery believes. At present only 1 or 2% of cars have AEB (autonomous emergency braking) - where the car brakes automatically or warns the driver at the sign of an obstacle ahead.
"It's radar-based so that even when it's foggy it would have worked," he says. And soon it is likely to become a common feature.
Next year cars seeking a five-star safety rating will require AEB features. Also from 2014 it will become mandatory for lorries to be equipped with forward collision warnings. Crashes will still happen but there will be very few big pile-ups, Avery predicts.
"Things like the Isle of Sheppey crash just won't happen in 10 years' time," he says.

and
Quote:
Sheppey crossing safety calls after 130-vehicle crash
6 September 2013 Last updated at 20:24

Crash scene Witnesses said the series of crashes went on for 10 minutes
Dozens hurt as 130 vehicles crash
Sheppey crash: 'It was horrendous'
How 'domino effect' crash unfolded Watch

Speed restrictions and overhead lights should be on the bridge where 130 vehicles were involved in a series of crashes in fog, it has been suggested.
Eight people were left badly injured and 35 needed hospital treatment after the pile-up on the Sheppey crossing.

The AA has called for matrix warning signs "as a minimum".
The Highways Agency said the bridge met standards when it was designed, but it would await the police investigation before considering safety measures.
On Thursday, the A249 bridge, which has a 70mph speed limit, was closed for nine hours while the wreckage was cleared. It partially reopened at 17:30 BST.
Those involved in the collisions described a mass of tangled cars, lorries and vans.

“Start Quote
There's a good case here for reducing the speed, particularly when there's bad weather”

Edmund King AA
Fog 'was factor'
Edmund King from the AA said: "As a minimum we would like to see matrix warning signs either side of the bridge, so if there is severe weather it can advise that people should slow down.
"There's a good case here for reducing the speed, particularly when there's bad weather."
Calls for safety measures came from Kent's former Chief Constable Mike Fuller in 2006
Both the RAC and Kent Police have said it was a "miracle" that no-one died.
David Bizley from the RAC said: "There was fog and the road was damp and we have had a prolonged period of hot weather so the road was greasy," he said.
"There are pockets where someone has been driving too fast and too close and that causes an accident."
Ch Insp Andy Reeves said the investigation had begun but it would be a long process.

"Fog was certainly a factor," he said. "I understand the visibility was very poor at the time."
Sheppey crash There have been calls for lighting and speed restrictions since the bridge was built

He said: "Clearly, that will be a major factor in the investigation, but beyond that obviously we will be looking at any of the other contributory factors around why these vehicles came together and why some stopped and some didn't."
Ch Insp Reeves said investigators would make recommendations but it would be for the Highways Agency to determine if any further measures were needed.

'Queue detection'
John Griffiths, Highways Agency South East director, said: "We will take the findings from Kent Police's investigation and we will help with them accordingly.
"We will have to think how best we can assist that and get our technical experts to consider what are the safety measures we can put in place."
He said his personal view was that a 50mph speed limit would have helped in this case, but he stressed that was a personal opinion.

Mr Griffiths said lighting was not seen as necessary when the bridge was designed, speed sign systems were used on motorways but not usually on dual carriageways, and a queue detection system that would warn drivers to slow down could be considered but installing it would be difficult.

“Start Quote
If the bridge had been lit properly and speed signs had come up, perhaps the tragedy would not have happened”

Councillor Ken Pugh
"We will put forward proposals and we will look at how best to prioritise what we can get best safety benefit from," he said.
The £100m four-lane dual carriageway crossing, which connects the Isle of Sheppey with mainland Kent, opened in 2006.
That year, safety fears were raised by the then Chief Constable of Kent, Mike Fuller, who raised concerns about there being no emergency telephones, lighting, or hard shoulder and called for a speed limit reduction.
Councillor Ken Pugh, from Swale Borough Council, said he had campaigned for lighting and speed restrictions since the bridge opened.
"If the bridge had been lit properly and speed signs had come up, perhaps the tragedy would not have happened," he said.
The crossing is three-quarters of a mile (1.25km) long and rises to 115ft (35m) at its highest point.

In a statement, the Highways Agency said: "It is too early to speculate on the cause of yesterday's incident which is still under police investigation.
"However we continually keep safety under review and will work with the police investigation, as well as conducting our own review, to see if further safety improvements can be made.
"The bridge was built to our UK standards with a design speed of 70 mph.
"Any reduction in speed limit would have to be backed up by evidence to show it has a worthwhile safety improvement and would need to be enforced by the police to be effective."

Mr Fuller has clearly NOT carried out his concerns from his (years) earlier worries! So he IS being irresponsible then! See below : Mon 31st July 06
BBC News wrote:
New crossing to get safety review
Last Updated: Monday, 31 July 2006, 21:53 GMT 22:53 UK
Sheppey Crossing

Mr Fuller said people had raised concerns over the bridge's safety
The Chief Constable of Kent and the Transport Minister Stephen Ladyman have agreed to an assessment into the safety of the Sheppey Crossing.

Mike Fuller told Dr Ladyman there were "significant concerns" over the safety of the new bridge which links the Isle of Sheppey to mainland Kent.
They included no emergency telephones, lighting, or hard shoulder. He also called for a speed limit reduction.
Dr Ladyman said he was "absolutely convinced" the bridge was safe.

Mr Fuller said: "Local people and our officers have raised concerns on important safety issues and it would be irresponsible and unprofessional of me not to act on these concerns."

He added that the force sought to work closely with the government, the Health and Safety Executive and Kent County Council.
The assessment will involve traffic police experts and highway specialists.
The bridge cost £100m was opened by Dr Ladyman on 3 July.
So what did he do 'nothing' then ?
Where is his report then about what actions and investigations and engineers reports ?
Was the bridge this high to help with very large ships or something ?
is it the curve of the bridge that helps to cause the blindspot effect ?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:37 
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Will be interesting to find out how many of these drivers did stop before they hit the pile of vehicles in front.

Of course, travelling at a suitable speed and managing to stop in time is all well and good, at least until some twunt piles into the back of you.

Apparently the fog caused it. Rubbish, people driving too fast for the conditions caused it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 15:47 
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weepej wrote:
Will be interesting to find out how many of these drivers did stop before they hit the pile of vehicles in front.

Of course, travelling at a suitable speed and managing to stop in time is all well and good, at least until some twunt piles into the back of you.

Apparently the fog caused it. Rubbish, people driving too fast for the conditions caused it.


I completely agree with you in this case.

Clearly most of the drivers involved there were not making much attempt to drive at a speed that was appropriate to the conditions, but even if they had done their best in that respect, it still might not have been enough to avoid all the shunting.

Something I read many years ago seemed to suggest that there is a real difficulty in recognising just how low your speed needs to be in conditions where visibility is seriously limited. I can't remember the explanation now, but I seem to recall it was based on judgements of what drivers believed to be their range of vision: in other words they believed that they were able to see further ahead than was truly the case, and consequently they had no chance of maintaining a safe stopping distance.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 19:31 
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I wonder if ISA based on the degree of visibility would be more use than ISA based on speed limits? I don't know if the technology exists, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. Certainly the earlier comments in the article about the radar-based Advanced Emergency Braking systems would have been very useful in this case, but I wonder of a cheaper technology could do it? One extremely easy thing to do would be to automatically limit a car's maximum speed to (say) 40 or 50 when its foglights were on. That would be very easy to do and would serve the other useful purpose of reminding the muppets who persist in driving with them on when it's clear to turn them off! (Even then, I bet you'd get a few that would take the car to a garage complaining about loss of power...)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 06:37 
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Mole wrote:
I wonder if ISA based on the degree of visibility would be more use than ISA based on speed limits? I don't know if the technology exists, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. Certainly the earlier comments in the article about the radar-based Advanced Emergency Braking systems would have been very useful in this case, but I wonder of a cheaper technology could do it? One extremely easy thing to do would be to automatically limit a car's maximum speed to (say) 40 or 50 when its foglights were on. That would be very easy to do and would serve the other useful purpose of reminding the muppets who persist in driving with them on when it's clear to turn them off! (Even then, I bet you'd get a few that would take the car to a garage complaining about loss of power...)


Presumably we're talking about rear foglights, because I have concluded that front foglights are almost useless unless you're in thick fog at night, and the speed is less than about 20 mph. In those conditions the low mounting of front foglights seems to help, but they have a very short range, so the wide lateral spread seems to be the principal benefit as it illuminates the road edge more readily.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 07:55 
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Yes, rears. I find the same thing with fronts. Ernest once made an interesting point that they're much more useful in low cloud (which comes down from above) rather than fog, which rises from the ground. Be that as it may, I've been wondering about front fogs. I think they're one of the few devices on cars whose performance hasn't improved in the best part of 50 years. Halogen bulbs were the last significant improvement. I wonder if average speeds in fog were much lower 50 years ago and it's therefore not that fog has got worse since (or that foglights have got worse), rather that drivers' expectations of the speed they can maintain in any conditions has changed?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 08:00 
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Oh, and something else that has crossed my mind...

I think it is utterly AMAZING that there have been no fatalities in a pile-up this size. I also put it to those supporters of camera enforcement that this is a superb demonstration of how our improvements in KSI rates over the last 20 years has been virtually NOTHING to do with cameras or driver education and almost entirely down to improvements in vehicle safety. If it HAD been to do with cameras, you might have expected fewer pile-ups to happen in the first place but a similar number of fatalities when they did. (And in this particular case, not even that, because I doubt many (if any) of the vehicles involved would have been exceeding the prosecution threshold had a camera been there).

I DO hope Greenshed drops in sometime to put us straight on that one.... :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 18:55 
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Your proposition is completely nuts and without foundation; make a reasonable proposition and I may reply.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 19:39 
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Ah, well, if YOU say it's nuts and without foundation, then I guess it must be?! :roll:

OK then, perhaps you'd like to put forward a plausible explanation as to why nobody was killed?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 20:43 
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Mole wrote:
Oh, and something else that has crossed my mind...

I think it is utterly AMAZING that there have been no fatalities in a pile-up this size. I also put it to those supporters of camera enforcement that this is a superb demonstration of how our improvements in KSI rates over the last 20 years has been virtually NOTHING to do with cameras or driver education and almost entirely down to improvements in vehicle safety. If it HAD been to do with cameras, you might have expected fewer pile-ups to happen in the first place but a similar number of fatalities when they did. (And in this particular case, not even that, because I doubt many (if any) of the vehicles involved would have been exceeding the prosecution threshold had a camera been there).

I DO hope Greenshed drops in sometime to put us straight on that one.... :lol:


+1 :clap: :clap: :clap:

As I posted earlier - look at a google to the southbound carriageway . At one point the view IMHO is farless than safe stopping distance . This accident was waiting to hapen by POOR ENGINEERING.
As for bad sites, even with Cameras, A5 Redgate ( now at 40), still has a poor record, and the problem at Rytron was only cured by engineeering the road to make it safwr .The cameras were only a fob to safety . ( Read the ABD report).
BTW, e don't drop in, he surfaces . :sublurking:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 22:56 
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GreenShed wrote:
Your proposition is completely nuts and without foundation; make a reasonable proposition and I may reply.


No, what Mole says is a perfectly valid interpretation of what has been happening.

It might be interesting to compare the number of crashes before and after the arrival of the speed cameras.

If the number of crashes is about the same, the cameras should not be credited with the reduced casualty rate. It should be attributable to improvements in the degree of protection given to drivers and passengers when the crashes do occur.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 00:39 
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He's submergred into PH land, where he's got his boots on and he's not likeing the reception there . Bit warm I think.
Here he's GS. On PH ,it's currently PITMANSBOOTS .

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 20:48 
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This Greenshed (despite the name change)is the same person who when confronted with reports that his website was not functioning as it should, buried his head in the sand, and refused to even contemplate such an occurrence, let alone go and check it out! :lol:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=17377

How ANYONE even contemplates believing anything he spouts is beyond me... I suspect they are taken in by the arrogant stance which he bullies others with!

Glad Judge Hughes was not taken in by it though! :clap:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 23:57 
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One of his mates got his little ship ( HM submarine ?)stuck in sand on the approach to Skye bridge, I remember. I remember this was despite the well known rip round the point into the channel. It's something that any native of the west coast knows of. Seems to be a habit , either getting burying head in sand , or getting little boats in their command ,stuck in it .
And if this is their level of proficiency in their chosen ,and trained profession, can WE really trust them to make professional judgements on law.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 23:56 
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TripleS wrote:
weepej wrote:
Will be interesting to find out how many of these drivers did stop before they hit the pile of vehicles in front.
Of course, travelling at a suitable speed and managing to stop in time is all well and good, at least until some twunt piles into the back of you.
Apparently the fog caused it. Rubbish, people driving too fast for the conditions caused it.
I completely agree with you in this case.

Clearly most of the drivers involved there were not making much attempt to drive at a speed that was appropriate to the conditions, but even if they had done their best in that respect, it still might not have been enough to avoid all the shunting.

Something I read many years ago seemed to suggest that there is a real difficulty in recognising just how low your speed needs to be in conditions where visibility is seriously limited. I can't remember the explanation now, but I seem to recall it was based on judgements of what drivers believed to be their range of vision: in other words they believed that they were able to see further ahead than was truly the case, and consequently they had no chance of maintaining a safe stopping distance.
Yep I agree that we all ought to always drive so that we can stop on our side of the road, in the distance that we know to be clear.
However with this particular bridge, they *knew* there was a sight problem. Add fog /perhaps patchy fog and it was enough to have 100 vehicles all make a mistake.
That highlights a serious flaw in the road layout and design or a unique set of exceptional circumstances that lead a great number of people to all make a big error.
They were (as I highlighted in the quotes in purple) meant to be addressing this engineering problem. It seems they have done nothing, in other words left it! I hope now that it will be fully and properly resolved.
A speed limit can help us to be aware of expected hazard density. This high bridge will immediately inform all road users of potential hazards like especially high winds & gusts, ice in the winter (especially), and damp road surface, in rain water runs on the surface, & fog. However most (major) roads we travel are usually of good layout, good visual sight lines and good grip and camber with gentle sweeping curves, what we don't 'expect' is for the road to drop and potentially 'disappear' significantly. This can lead to a loss of perspective and so one would need to drop speed rapidly to help allow for the shortened view. I think this is exactly what happened, and add fog and people had little time to break before crashing. The fact that many 'hit' but so few injuries implies low speed impacts.

Thus its 'sudden' and total, however when I try the google street map and go along the road it keeps jumping me to the road below which is annoying.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 01:22 
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Mole wrote:
... One extremely easy thing to do would be to automatically limit a car's maximum speed to (say) 40 or 50 when its foglights were on. That would be very easy to do ....
That's a very interesting idea but surely we must always try to inform and guide before restrictions ? Perhaps its coupled with 'Defensive driving qualifications' which would tell 'garage's' this facility can be disabled ... humm interesting concept to introduce.... more education with really better skills (etc) would lead to greater 'freedoms' and privileges... the graduated licenses that I have often felt will come !

Triple S - yes I agree front fogs help light the side of the road but also the tarmac directly in front, plus they do help one to be seen as do oncoming cars become a bit more visually obvious.

Mole - Patchy fog can be lethal, so just people think they are 'clear' they hit another dense patch. No lights will really help (much) of course no matter how good they maybe BUT thermal cameras and perhaps night vision cameras might. Certainly close proximity sensors could help but be too late to help much. The 'alert' accident ahead system may offer some crucial advance warning to following cars and that would be really useful. Especially if that system were on all major road networks and immediately and simply lit up 'warning' lights at the side of the road automatically from the immediate position of the original source say for 500m in red and then amber for a greater prior length. The one proposed was over complicated and way too track-able. We need a simple system. :)

Triple S wrote:
It might be interesting to compare the number of crashes before and after the arrival of the speed cameras.

If the number of crashes is about the same, the cameras should not be credited with the reduced casualty rate. It should be attributable to improvements in the degree of protection given to drivers and passengers when the crashes do occur.
It's been done and the results show 'no discernible difference', although 'all accidents were looked at.
In many cases accident rates had dropped prior to the speed cameras being positioned/installed, (but commissioned) or in some cases 'turned on', yet it hasn't stopped the 'illusion benefit' to be attributed to them. [Ref here : http://www.fightbackwithfacts.com/analy ... accidents/]

All views are welcome on these forums.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 09:24 
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I think it is utterly AMAZING that there have been no fatalities in a pile-up this size. I also put it to those supporters of camera enforcement that this is a superb demonstration of how our improvements in KSI rates over the last 20 years has been virtually NOTHING to do with cameras or driver education and almost entirely down to improvements in vehicle safety


Sorry, Mole, you are totally wrong and as ever, Greenshield is dead right. The reason for no deaths in this incident isn't down to safer vehicles, it is obviously due to the scamera van which was positioned on a bridge a few hundred yards from the crash site...;-)

The only reason the roads are so much safer these days is down to scameras...any simplistic fool knows that and will happily tell you so. (as demonstrated often on this site)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:03 
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Clearly if Avery think that 'big pile ups' are a thijng of the past they do not understand that friction is required to work for a car to stop, i.e so this is going to work on ice ?
They admit crashes will still happen so how will a pile up be defined - no car hitting each other or no cars on top / in each other ?

Yet no one seems to be trying to address the most obvious fault - why are drivers/ riders missing vital clues to hazards and not braking earlier ?
If their not thinking about the task ahead properly have they stopped anticipating?

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