Safe Speed Forums

i have 9 points on my license (3 points from feb 2003 for 70 in a 60 limit on a 2-way road, i'd been driving for 9 years thinking that 70mph limit was for all national speed limit roads and it was a hidden camera i didnt even see on a road i use every day). so those 3 points wear off in feb of 2006.

then i got 6 points and £260 fine in february of this year for doing 101 in a 70 limit - yes silly to do that speed but it was an empty road and i was in a rush and had been held up in road works. i wont be doing that again! i put the case in the court that i need my license for my job so they accepted that and didnt give me a temp ban.

anyway yesterday morning i was driving into doncaster on the main dual carriageway, it was a strange road to me and i was lost. there was a zillion speed cams (trevulos) on that road. speed limit changed from 50 to 40 to 50 all the way up so it was confusing and i got flashed face-on going just under 50 (i thought it was still a 50 limit but apparently it was a 40 limit).

i'm crossing my fingers for the next 14 days that i dont get a NIP fixed penalty notice.

if i do, it means i will have totted up 12 points in under 3 years and could get a 6 - 12 month ban?

i am tempted to return the NIP (if i get one) marked "not at this address" - will this do any good? the postal service is so poor we often get stuff lost in the post anyway because the postman doesnt know where our house is at the end of the cul-de-sac.

or i could get someone to say they were driving my car at the time, if i done this would they check the photograph of the drivers face from the trevelo camera?

i feel like i will try anything because i dont have anything to lose when on 9 points. i was even tempted to go and burn the camera but i live miles away from it!

there was a large custom car boy-racer show (all weekend do) in doncaster this weekend so maybe there will have been loads caught on the cams and they wont have the resources to process all the camera's which flashed within 14 days?

if i did accept the NIP and go to court would i be wasting my time to argue that it was confusing the way it went 40 to 50 to 40 to 50 all the way up that road and i was lost and in a strange town? or would they just say bolox to that your getting the fine and the ban anyway....

if i get a 6 - 12 month ban and i lose my job, i dunno if i will be able to claim housing benefit because of my partners income (we live in private rented accommodation) and i probably wouldnt get dole for the same reason. seems so bad that i could have my whole life and career ruined for such a minor misdemeanour - i didnt meaningfully speed through the doncaster camera with any malice? a few years ago i was beaten up and left for dead and hospitalised by 3 bouncers, the police prosecuted them and they got off with small fines and nothing else? why is the motoring punishments much heavier than crimes of violence?

i heard a rumour that the government (if re-elected) is going to bring in a new road safety bill in 2006 whereby the fines and points you get for speeding will be less than now - because so many people are getting banned. any news on this? if they do, it will be too late for me though.

you would be best served by popping along to http://pepipoo.com/NewForums2/index.php and start by reading the FAQ's

Cheers

Paul

I do sympathise with you if you lose your job as a result of this. Let me go through a few points with you:

Yes if you build up 12 points you can loose your license. i would expect for 6 - 12 months. The magistrates in my area give a 4 month ban for a first offence of no insurance!

Not at this address! It only has to be proven that the NIP was sent, you have to be able to prove you didn't receive it, and just saying "I didn’t receive it" wont work

Yes they will check the drivers face if you contend it, and who will you say was driving. This is also attempting to pervert the course of justice, which could put you in Crown Court.

Don't worry no matter how busy it was they will process ALL of the people caught speeding (that’s a lot of revenue)

At court you can try to use the unfamiliar road defence, but I suspect the magistrates will say tough. Visit Pepipoo for advice on this.

As for your assault, and the punishment.....I'll keep quiet before I rant

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'Detritus, get yer stoney arse over ere'

Is that good or bad? Are you saying that not all magistrates are the same? Do we get justice by post code now too?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

No, you'll find yourself facing a prosecution for failing to identify the driver - another 3 points!

That doesn't matter. They don't have to prove you recieved it to prosecute for failing to identify the driver. Crazy but true.


Take this idea over to Pepipoo and I think it will get a very bad reception. If you get caught you could wind up in prison. (ask Mr Simmonite).



Do not try anything illegal. If you get a NIP then go to the Pepipoo forums and get their advice. Remember you have 28 days to reply to the NIP. Use those 28 days to decide how you are going to fight. If you decide to go to court there will be a further delay, probably months if you choose to plead not guilty. they will try to bully you with threats of extra points/fine, don't be taken in. You have a right to a day in court use it or lose it.

It is possible that by stringing things out your case might not arrive in court until after your 3points expire. You'll have to ask over at Pepipoo how things would work out if that happened.



There is a good chance the road safety bill is dead and buried. And the proposed graduated penalties would probably have resulted in MORE points being handed out, not less, and would be a step toward zero tolerance.

The Road Safety bill ran out of time in the current parliament, unlike the bill to make the closing of railways easier, which was rushed through!

Shame..

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Speed camera policy Kills

cheers for the replies everyone, i've tried pepipoo but not had a response yet.

if i get a NIP i'll wait till the last day before the 28 days is up to return it, to prolong the experience, then try and string it out as much as poss (good thinking batman!)

regarding ALL speedcam flashes being processed, i've been flashed a few times in the past and not got a ticket? and i once went past a mobile van trap at 70 in a 50 limit (and i could see the "life saver" manning the cam at the time) and i never got a ticket. plus i've been past a few "life savers" on flyovers going over the limit and not got tickets.

i know someone who will willingly say it was him driving when i got flashed, so if i say it was him and he admits it, surely they wont check his photograph against the one on the camera?

please no preaching at me for speeding in the past - i dont speed anywhere whatsoever now. and lets face it theres about 20 million vehicles all over the country at this very moment all speeding. trouble is because i go under the limit everywhere now i have cars up my ass. last night on the A14 i was going 40 in the roadworks speed limit and i had lorries right on my tailgate. so these "scare tactics" of the authorites to people like me, will no doubt cause me to have someone come into the back of me because i now have to drive so slow

i'm seriously thinking of moving overseas, i've got to the point where i've had to stop all un-necessary journeys etc because theres so many speedcams and mobile traps about EVERYWHERE i go. i sort of feel imprisoned? the joy has long gone out of driving.

if i do get banned you can take it from me there will be some protests going on along the lines of the "fathers for justice"

Some cameras are dummys, often these will flash cars in either direction. Many will flash cars which are not breaking the speed limit.



This is a really really bad idea. People have gone to prison for this. What if you and your friend have a falling out in the future?


Who's preaching at you? There's one or two people here who would but I havn't seen them pop their heads up in this thread.

Unless you mean speeding as in an inapropriate speed for the road and conditions. We don't like that here but since when did those little numbers in red circles have anything to do with appropriate speeds for the conditions?

Three years my son was caught by a scamera in Northants. He was driving a company car registered to a company in Herts and he lived in a rented flat in London. The company named him when the NIP arrived, but did not give his licence number or date of birth because they did not have this information.
By the time the NIP would have arrived at his flat he had moved to France to work on a 6 month assignment. On his return he lived with us for a while then moved to another property some distance away.
Thus he never received the NIP, the cash-camera pratnership never re-contacted the vehicle's registered keeper (i.e. the company who owned the car). Presumably the new occupants of his flat sent the NIP's back marked 'gone away'.
So, 3 years on, he has heard nothing and has never received an NIP requesting his 'confession' so cannot be prosecuted for failing to supply driver details. Presumably the speeding could not be proceeded with now after almost 3 years even if they did manage to locate him. If they tried he would plead not guilty and ask for the evidence. By the way, the company who owned the car have now ceased trading and all their paperwork is, presumably, with their former accountants or with the liquidator.

sorry i just meant about the preaching thing, on other forums i go on, as soon as anyone mentions they have speeded in the past alot of people start preaching about how sinful it is etc

cooperman, interesting reading about your son. glad to see he got away with it!

however, my brother used to work for a company which had several vehicles which were used by the employees. sometimes a NIP would come through for speeding, and they would try and work out among the staff who was driving at the time. occasionally they could not remember or work out who was driving, nobody would admit it, so the company secretary (the vehicles were registered in the companies name) who was the bosses mother, she would get the 3 points and fine when none of the staff would admit it.

so in the case of your son, this is maybe what happened with the hire company?

i was of the impression that if a vehicle gets copped on camera speeding - "someone" HAS to be done for the offence even if its not the true offender.

I'll try to clear up a few of things here.

They can prosecute for faily to identify the driver even if you have never seen the NIP.

It is unlikely the speeding or failing to identify could be pursued now as the speeding "times out" after six months and the failing to identify (S172) times out after six months plus 28 days.

But.

They only have to "lay papers" with the court in that six months. They don't even have to inform you of the fact that they have laid papers. The first contact you would get would be a summons which is supposed to be "within a reasonable time". Two years is a figure I have seen suggested but nothing firm.

The above I have gleaned from reading various posts on Pepipoo...

Now, if your son was untraceable I wonder if it is possible that he has been prosecuted in his absence? He may have points on his licence (from the S172) he knows nothing about. What is more, not telling the DVLA of his whereabouts is an offence in it's self (even if he is living out of the country).

It's doubtful the speeding will have been prosecuted without any evidence of the driver but you never know the dirty tricks these lot get up to.

OK i have received the NIP today from South Yorkshire polic, i am ABSOLUTELY gutted

46 in a 40 limit.

i already have 9 points on my license. whats my next move?

3 of these points wear off in february 2006.

i have also posted on pepipoo but i would like as many ideas as i can get please

Stealthtax: stop worrying NOW.

I have a friend in Leicester in exactly the same position. What he did was send back the NIP naming himself as the driver, and including his driving licence with its 9 points.

The licence was returned with a letter saying that bacause he had 9 points, the camera office WERE NOT ALLOWED to deal with it, and that he would be summoned to court in due course. Apparently, you can't be automatically banned in these circumstances. A magistrate MUST hear the case. This letter was in October last year. He's still waiting for a court date, and in the meantime three of the points have passed three years.

If you were to do this, and it eventually came to court, the magistrates listening to your defence about the confusing road signs and (it sounds like deliberately) confusing and constanrly changing posted limits might AT WORSE CASE award you TWO more points. With a good lawyer and sympathetic magistrates, you might well be aquitted or have the case thrown out.

Also, as a point of interest, I once employed a salesman (about 10 years ago) who had 12 points on his licence, but was not disqualified. He drove around legally on his 12-point licence with the blessing of the beak. DVLA would confirm to you that this is sometimes allowed.

Please get yourself a top lawyer ASAP. As others have pointed out, pepipoo.com is the place to start.


May God Damn all these scamerati scum-bastsards to hell and back . The untold misery and stress they are causing to millions of law-abiding citizens, not to mention the hike in road accidents, deaths and injuries directly resulting from their brain-dead stupid, dangerous policies makes my blood boil almost as much as the bare-faced lies constantly spouted by their spin-doctors. How can such criminality, masquerading as law and order, be allowed to proliferate like this? The architects of this EVIL, DANGEROUS policy should be put on trial and sent down for 20 years.

English law used to be ruled by the philosophy 'the normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'. The scamerati have destroyed all this, and are in grave danger of literally criminalising half the population.


Rant over.

Seriously, though, stay calm and get yourself a good lawyer experienced in these cases. There is a way through it.

Keep us posted.

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'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

Hold tight and use your 28 days.

As has been mentioned, you will not have any choice but to take it through the courts. This is why it is important to fight every alledged offence and not wait until you are facing a ban.

I'm sure the good people at pepipoo will have some ideas.

I know of cases in the past where a little bantering with the scammers has extended the 28 day rule. It can be worth spinning an "I'm not entirely sure" yarn for a while. Ask for copies of the photos to help jog your memory etc.

Don't forget you need to check the evidence yourself. It may not even be your car.
And in a case so close as this it wouldn't take much of a mistake to put you below the threshold for prosecution.
You don't know it was the camera you saw flash, the allegation may come from another source. If you are really lucky it could be an LTI 20-20 (dodgyscope). South Yorks are known to deply these on roads covered by fixed cameras.

Firstly, the "delaying tactics" won't help in any way with regard to the first set of point elapsing - the Court will consider the date of the offence in determining whether you have reached 12 in 3 years, regardless of when it finally gets to court.

Presumably you have visited pepipoo and read up the various methods of defending yourself. I won't try and improve upon the level of advice you will get from there, all I would say is:

* In general don't do anything until the last date you need to. It won't help the points thing as above, but every delay at this stage gets you closer to the six month limit for "laying of papers" at court, beyond which they can't prosecute.

* Keep every single piece of paperwork - including the envelope it came in - and get everything scrutinised by experts.

* Pay your £30 for a pepipoo star and don't give up, however hopeless it might seem. If you are thorough in your preparation and look for every little chink in their armour I reckon there is probably a 50% chance that there will be an error made somewhere down the line that can be exploited. For a successful speeding prosecution there are an awful lot of complex procedures that have to be followed to the letter, and the CPS do seem to cut corners.

* Don't post anything on any forums (even private "members only" ones), which might possibly allow you to be identified, however indirectly. It would seem that the CPS do trawl such forums to try and glean clues about how specific cases are going to be defended. Whilst it is questionable whether this practice legally represents a breach of client / advocate confidence, it sure as hell breaches it morally and demonstrates just what depths they will plumb to win cases.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Are they really as devious as that? If so, it's frightening.

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'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

thanks for the replies guys thats some very useful info.

my brother would be willing to say he was driving, and he sort of looks like me so is it too much of a risk for me to say it was him? surely the scamera partnerships will be happy so long as they get someone for the offence.

is it normal procedure if the vehicle owner says its someone else, for them to request a photo of the face of both people so they can double check?

and can anyone recommend a good lawyer. and how much will it cost me for a lawyer

The photos are often used to BLUFF drivers into an admission. As far as I know they have NEVER been used to identify a driver in court. It's very difficult to get to 'beyond reasonable doubt' when the only evidence of identity is a photo.

But be very careful. What you're suggesting here - lying in the legal process to avoid a penalty - amounts to attempting to pervert the course of justice. That's a serious offence and frequently carries a prison sentence.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

yeah i see what you mean its a big risk involved but there may be little chance of them checking up on it.

on my last NIP i received for doing 101 in a 70, i returned that signed, then when they sent the court summons it included 2 pics of my car, one was a close up which clearly showed my face. i then had to send in the form with my license pleading guilty or whatever. but they would have had no way of knowing if it was really my face in the photo