Safe Speed Forums

I'm happy with most of your examples of bad driving, but please tell me why you include number 7?

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

I'll give you an example of something I encountered just last week.
Going down the M5 on my way home, everything was flowing smoothly, average amount of traffic - nothing too heavy.
All of a sudden, brake lights. And more brake lights. Over the next mile or so, the traffic gradually slowed down to zero. and so, over the next few miles or so the traffic speed went up and down like a yoyo, from dead stop up to around 65-70 and back down again. Complete chaos.
Eventually I caught sight of the reason - a jam sandwich in lane 1 doing 56mph. How do I know he was doing 56? He was behind a lorry, and he stayed there.
The point is, some people were too scared to actually pass him at 70mph - so they drifted past imperceptibly slowly - and this was what created all the chaos behind. There could have been an accident because of it, and he would not have known about it.

This is just one example - I have seen it many times.
If drivers of police cars aren't aware that they have this sort of effect, then they b****y well should be.

Cheers
Peter

But whose fault is this Peter?
Why have drivers become so ignorant of what is expected of them in normal motoring conditions?
Why blame the police for driving like any other member of the public could reasonably be driving on a motorway?
It's a classic example of the 'hidden' effect that speed camera fixation coupled with, effectively, the broadcasting of few other road safety messages has on dragging the overall standard of our driving ever lower

I actually encountered a police car doing this on the M3 the other day, very late at night, and it was bloody helpful - it meant that instead of being stuck behind at 70 for ages, you could go past at 70, and about a mile further up the road resume a normal speed. It's the type of intelligent traffic policing that ought to be encouraged, imho.

I'm not approportioning blame, merely pointing out that, rightly or wrongly and for whatever reason, this is what does happen.

Cheers
Peter

Oh I think you'll find we/they are fully aware of the effect of being on the motorway at 56mph. And at 70 miles per hour, and at 45 miles per hour, and at 85mph.

As STC has said, one of the reasons we sit at the speed of the slowest 10 percentile is to allow freer flow of traffic. We do not trundle down the motorway for mile after mile, generally we'll come off at services or a junction...why? To try to mitigate some of the problems you have raised.

Choose any speed for us to travel at, you will get the same kind of gripe.
Perhaps we shouldn't be there at all. Perhaps cameras would be a better option, if our very presence on the road causes a problem. I've heard there's a protest group somewhere that actually wants more of us!!.............can't think of it's name for the minute...........

But the original statement was that driving at 56 mph was an example of bad driving.

It seems that the original poster may have withered into the virtual ether, and will not qualify his comment.

Some years ago, one of the 'non traffic' support groups in Cumbria (advanced drivers nonetheless) were told to patrol the motorway using traffic cars during daylight hours at 70mph and prevent any exceeding of the speed limit. The idea was to disrupt speeding behaviour. The result - it caused so much disruption that it was thankfully never repeated.

The least disruptive speeds for us to travel at are either 55mph or 100mph. But we'd get one or two complaints about 100mph too, you only have to read some of the 'hypocrites' posts to see that.

I have mentioned before that our presence can cause adverse reactions from motorists. Camera vans do also.

Yes we are abundantly aware of the problems our presence can cause and mitigate them whenever we can.

But NO, it is absolutely not bad driving!

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

"Oh yes it is!!" - Just not by you guys!

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

A few years ago, I bought an old air cooled VW Beetle - just for fun, and to experience driving the car which was created in bigger numbers than any other in the history of motoring. I can confirm that those old Beetles were total crap by modern standards, and totally unsuited to modern driving needs. But it was fun!

One day I was driving in it heading west along the M4 towards Glos. In that car, I always made a point of keeping to the left lane on any road. But on this day I had to pull out to the middle lane because of a car in the left lane being driven by a guy of about 60 who was clearly enjoying the scenery of west Berkshire. His speed was 35mph! It wasn't as if his car was an old cronk like my beetle; it was a late model VW Polo.

One wonders why we can't have a minimum speed limit, as in America.

About a year ago I overtook an almost new M5 on the M4 near Swindon. It was being driven by a pensioner with his wife in the passenger seat. He was in L2 at 40-45 mph with nothing in L1 to overtake. At the time I thought it was a waste of a nice car and was being driven inconsiderably when L1 would have been a much better idea. Looking back, perhaps he was just a year ahead of us guys and was protesting against speed cameras on motorways

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Kill a talivan, not your speed.

I and many others believe the police act in a irresponsible fashion by driving (or should I say hiding) at 56mph between two trucks. Just waiting to pounce on someone doing 71mph.

The main problem is with their methods and prioritys. For example ever driven around Northampshire ? Speed cameras, both mobile and fixed police trying to catch you out and generally having a little cruise round the faster roads in their cars. Yet the openly admit they cannot cope with the number of murders and need help from outside the county. Never seem to have that problem when it comes to staying a little of the NSL do they now ?

Driving an M5 at 45mph on an quiet motorway in ideal conditions, let alone in L2 with L1 empty, ought to be some kind of criminal offence - 'exhibiting utter contempt for leading-edge high performance automotive technology', or something like that, should cover it.

(P.S. to all the po-faced anti-car eco-nazis, this is known as a J-O-K-E.)

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'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

Ian

Perhaps 'bad' driving was too strong a term, but it unfortunately has the effect of causing others to change their driving behaviour in ways which can create dodgy situations - usually well behind and out of sight of the police car.
AFAIAC drivers should drive according to road, traffic and weather conditions. Any other external factors which demand the attention of drivers can sometimes be a bad thing.
A civilian driver driving in a fashion which causes other road users to change their driving behaviour would doubtless be pulled very quickly if seen by the police.

Perhaps it's because of the 'speed obsessed' society we have that such things happen. Perhaps if some drivers didn't feel that the wrath of the law would instantly descend on thm if they dared to overtake a police car then they might not overreact in the way they do.

Perhaps this is a good case for unmarked cars on motorway patrols. After all, if people are driving reasonably then they have nothing to fear, right?

Cheers
Peter

Why do people have a problem with overtaking Police Cars doing 60 It winds me up, not the Polices faultin my eyes.

I had a Police Car at night on the M4 bomb down the outside lane slow down and pull in behind me in the inside lane for a couple of miles I was doing 70 at the time, then bomb past and do the same to the next car (So it was ok for hime to speed on the mway )

Don't recall you using it Pete.

It was this chap who seems to have changed his argument a little now.


And when they do pounce on the 71mph driver, what do they do Chris?

Or is this a bit of a pi**ed off rant using a little bit of hyperbole for effect.

I'll leave any further replies 'til your comments come closer to the mark.



Granted. I do drive unmarked cars occasionally and also my own private car. I routinely see the mess people make of passing patrol cars. And I'm pretty aware of what is happening through my rear view mirrors. I've never yet been aware of any serious consequences other than a bit of slowing down.
We are not exactly invisible!


We have talked much in other threads about the pros and cons of over emphasis on speed enforcement. I am not in disagreement with you there. I do think that there may be added worry in the mind of the public about the threat of unnecessary enforcement, and that is an issue we all have to work with.


We still need a balance. We do have to deal with collisions, stop checks of vehicles, pursuits, and immediate response incidents. These along with many other incidents require, or are much aided by marked cars.
I'd be happy with more unmarked, but I think you'll have to buy us some more trafpol

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

<my opinion>If they give us a little respect and pass below 80 they wouldn't get a second glance.</my opinion> It show us they have actually seen us. If they glide past at 90, then they are very likely to get spoken to.


Again this kind of rant is symptomatic of the irritation felt by the average motorist which IMO has been heightened by over-zealous speed enforcement. There are 1001 reasons for a traffic car to do the speed he is doing. I can think of any number of legitimate reasons why trafpol might behave the way you have described, but it gets translated into us being hypocrites.
I can understand why this is happening, but I hope you'll understand if we continue to do it.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

At the risk of earning a frown from Paul and cross-posting, but at the same time in an attempt to bring this thread back on topic, I have raised a poll about passing polivce on the motorway. Intersted parties might like to vote in it and perhaps add their two penn'rth on the topic in there.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2401

Sorry Paul for allowing this thread to be hijacked a bit.

It's an important thread subject for your protest and the post topic should return to it.

Please feel free to move our tangential discussions elsewhere if you feel it appropriate.

Edited to add
Sorry Roger, submitted this post before reading yours.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

that could be us mate. we want to get rid of the scameras that are causing more accidents rather than lowering statistics. the group that i am involved in are truckers and we would rather have police cars patrolling and using discretion that having to watch out for scameras all day. even if this does leave us in the position where we could be pulled over for nothing (we are targetted) it is better to have patrols out there who can catch a bad driver rather than a speeding driver. they are not the same thing!

if you want to know more, follow my website link

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
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Apologies Cotswold, I did intend to state no "marked" vehicles. However, I did not see any "marked" vehicles on the sections of the M4 that I was on at the time. Niether did I see any un-marked; though these are sometimes difficult to spot when a V40 is 4ft off the rear bumper at 65-68mph. I don't think H.Schumacher even got that close to Alonso yesterday but they both have better brakes than a V40!

The fact is that these cameras CANNOT differentiate between "Safe Speed" and absolute, pig-headed bad driving. If these cameras are to have an effect, without alienating the overwhelming majority of the safe driving public, they must be backed-up with a highly visible, intelligent patrol exercise, i.e., cameras out, patrols out.

On another tread, I offered to take Sgt Blencowe out on a "typical" trip. It need not be on the M4; I do use a fair number of other roads in Wiltshire, sometimes to escape from the M4! The offer extends now extends to "Cotswold". How about it?

1. use indicators only when necessary HWC rule 85.
3. if there is nothing behid them why should they.
7. a good fuel efficient speed.
14&15 as long as you choose a speed which will enable you to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, on your own side of the road. this might well be perfectly safe.