Safe Speed Forums

Bit like asking people how they breathe, but here goes:

How does everyone use their steering wheel? Pull-push or fixed input, or even "palming"!

Personally I'm a firm believer in fixed input, switching to pull-push only when I absolutely have to.

As someone mentioned elsewhere, I think IAM's insistence on "pull-push" is more about instilling discipline than about best practice.

I think I use all the possible techniques. Like you I use "fixed input" most of the time, but never past about 110 degrees (?). Then pull-push takes over for tighter corners in town driving. I use hand over hand for skid control - although it's a long time since I had any practice. I use palming for reversing only. I sometimes even use the bizarre "taxi driver" for some low speed manoeuvring.

If you don't know the "taxi driver", allow me to introduce him:

This is where (when intending to turn the wheel 180 to 300 degrees to the left), you turn your right hand over, grip the wheel rim from the inside and drag the wheel around the full distance in one move.

Oh, and I'm very firm about a two handed grip, and equally firm about quarter to three. Ten to two never suited me.

In the USA (and maybe elsewhere) they are beginning to recommend a twenty to four grip to keep your arms away from the air bag. I tried it and thought it was seriously horrible - I think I'd sooner disable the air bag.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
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The "taxi driver" reminds me of a truly scary experience I had a few years ago, when we'd been out one night and got a taxi for the ten mile trip home.

I guess (hope?) the driver normally only ever pootled around the town centre, as his steering technique had "evolved" into...

Left hand clamped firmly to gear-lever, never to move except to operate hand-held radio.

Right hand at 6 o'clock position on steering wheel, palm downwards gripping the inside of the rim.

And that was it! To see the driver negotiating A road corners at 50/60 mph steering one-handed with the bottom of the wheel was truly frightening. I'm not sure whether the car was actually fitted with indicators, he certainly never made any attempt to operate them (with either hand!)

<shudder>

OK. You got me. You found a technique I don't use.

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Paul Smith
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I learnt to drive in Finland and we were told never to use the pull-push method since it's useless if you get into a skid (something reasonably common in the snowy winter months). We were taught to use hand over hand most of the time. I have mates here that have commented on my steering as "rally style."

We also had to do skid training, night time driving (including overtaking and appropriate headlight usage), motorway driving, and a refresher course 6 months after gaining a licence. I also had to do a theory course and exam long before it was even thought of in the UK.

I think "pull-push" originated from racing driver's technique in the days of huge heavy cars with no power assistance. I personally don't think it has much relevance in these days of PAS. I'd rather go with the extra precision that the "quarter to three" fixed input method gives. It also blends much more seamlessly into "hand over hand" for dealing with emergency situations.

I read an interesting theory the other week that you shouldn't stop using fixed input at around 90 degrees of input, but should stay with it right up until your hands are fully crossed. The theory goes that on the occasions when you use this much lock, a sudden emergency will usually tend to require taking lock off rather than putting more on, and this can be done much more accurately if your hands are still in their original positions.

It is interesting to note from in-car footage that many top rally drivers tend to follow this idea, so there must be some value in it. For myself I found it a bit disconcerting - I felt "vulnerable" once I got much past about 100 degrees of lock.

The new 5 series BMW has adaptive steering that alters the steering ratio depending on road speed. At low speeds half a turn gives you full lock (or something like that), so perhaps when all cars use this sort of system 100% fixed input will be considered the only way to steer.

It seems to work well for motorbikes!

Fixed input for the main part, somewhere between 'twenty to four' and 'quarter to three'. There is one particularly nasty left hander nearby where I go for the aforementioned 'taxi driver'. Doesn't really make it any easier, but just feels more natural for some reason. As I don't have PAS, it's a way of getting on a lot of lock rapidly.

Hmm. On second thoughts, it's a bit of a silly thing to do. I shall perhaps adjust my cornering style in future

Oh, and could someone explain exactly what's meant by 'pull-push' steering? I presume this is the 'feeding through your fingers' approach that we're taught in driving lessons?

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Pull-push?

Start with hands at "ten to two". Assuming you want to turn left, you slide your left hand up to 12 o'clock and grip the wheel. Now use the left hand to turn the wheel left, but at the same time relax the grip of your right hand and move it down to stay level with the other hand. So as wheel turns through 90 degrees left hand is at 9 o'clock and right hand at 3.

When left hand gets to 7 o'clock and right hand gets to 5 o'clock swap grips. Now the right hand grips the wheel while the left lets it slide. The "pull" is now complete, and the right hand now begins the "push", moving back to 1 o'clock with the left hand sliding back to 11 o'clock to get back to the beginning of the cycle.

This developed in the days of big heavy cars and even lorries that had no power steering. Typically they had very low geared steering racks, so you had to have a means of moving the wheel through many turns and of applying a fair amount of force. The cycle starts with pulling your (left) hand towards you from nearly the top of the wheel, so you have the best possible mechanical advantage to start things moving. From then on you are taking advantage of building momentum to keep the wheel moving.

The trade-off is that only one hand is gripping the wheel, so you lack "feel" and accuracy. This wasn't so bad with low geared steering locks, as a few inches of movement on the rim of the wheel didn't do a lot. But with modern cars having much more sensitive and light steering, two hands at "quarter to three" gives much more precise control.

In my opinion...

Yeah, that's the technique my driving instructor taught me, I think. Fixed input at ten-to-two or quarter-to-three for gentle turns, but 'feather' (I think that was the word) the wheel for tighter turns so that your hands are still in roughly ten-to-two / quarter-to-three.

Not that it matters.. I can make the car go round corners, and I feel in control of it at [almost!? :p] all times, so I think I'm OK. Just need to avoid slipping into any bad or potentially dangerous habits, I guess.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

I am glad someone cleared up this push pull thing, I have seen the term many times and not known what it was - I now understand it is "driving lesson style"

I use the "taxi driver" technique now and again, but only really in places I know very well - can be handy for getting round tight corners quickly especially with power steering (dont think I ever used it in my last car that was not power steering, too much effort to bring the wheel all the way round with one hand ).

I usually hold the wheel in the tentotwo position and (due to fairly direct power assisted steering) rarely have to use either the push-pull or the hands crossing techniques except at very low speeds.

When I'm really concetrating on a twisty B road my hands will slip to a tewntytotwo position which is a throwback to an old Fiat I had in my early driving days with a misaligned steering wheel. The technique stuck with me ever since.

Personally, I like the 20 to 4 position as I can rest my wrists on my knees. I sit very close to the steering wheel so my knees never get much beyond 90 degrees when operating the clutch. I also have a very upright seat. The Taxi driver comes in handy at the bottom of my road and palms on is the easiest technique when parking and reversing. I drive a non-PAS Diesel 205 and only passed my test 4 months ago so I guess I should still be feeding the wheel! This is fine with Power Assistance, but in an older car thats a bit worn and abused it just doesnt work.

Yeah, since I last posted in this thread I've changed my technique slightly so that any given moment when steering, I always have a good mechanical advantage. Couldn't tell you exactly where my hands are at the time, mind you. When driving along a straight bit of road, I tend to rest my right elbow on the door handle, meaning my right hand is at about 4 o'clock, and the left hand rests lightly on the wheel at about 7 or 8 o'clock.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Twenty to two for me every time..... Leaves me one hand near the gear lever and one with a full range of motion.

I learnt to drive off road and never felt comfortable with feeding the wheel. Always feel I have less control in a slide when I feed.

Nearly all my cars have power steering if this makes a difference.

Just been reading an interesting snippet about steering, by Ralf Schumacher of all people. As you might expect, he too advocates fixed-input, but his advice for what to do in tight corners surprised me.

Instead of switching to pull-push once you get beyond the reasonable limit of "fixed input", he recommends effectively the opposite technique. Bit difficult to explain without a diagram, but here goes...

Lets say we are turning right, and we've got to (say) 120 degrees of lock with our hands in the fixed "quarter to three" position. At this point I would release my left hand and allow it to slide anticlockwise around the wheel to get the next "pull-push" grip. So in effect, the hand on the inside of the turn keeps control of the car during the initial grip change from fixed input.

RS's technique is the exact opposite. He suggests that the hand on the outside of the turn should be doing the primary steering work, as this effectively braces the shoulder into the seat as your hand passes 12 o'clock and provides more accurate control. So as you continue to turn you maintain the grip of your left hand, and grab the next armful of lock by crossing your right hand over it.

Does anyone else do this? I've had a try but found it a bit unwieldy, particularly when reversing the movement to take the lock back off again!

(as an aside, he calls Paul's "taxi driver" technique "milking the cow" which I thought was quite descriptive!)

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Having read this thread with interest (I've never really thought of my steering technique) I have to say I predominently use the RS method as I've never felt comfortable with push pull as it's too easy to end up with the leading hand too low on the steering wheel (I don't see how you could get a 120 degree lock with both hands fixed?)

The RS method with a 10 to 2 grip will allow around 180-200 degrees of smooth, controled movement with the outside hand and allow a steered return. If more lock is required a cross of hands will allow a further 70-80 degrees which is generally enough for most manouvers. A 20 to 4 grip will allow 240 - 270 degres in one move.

I do have to admit that I will generally let the wheel slip through both hands to straighten up if I've turned this tightly. Is this a bad thing?

On low hazard roads (long, straightish and quiet) I tend drop to a 20 to 4 but move back up to 10 to 2 when I spot anything ahead or behind that may cause a problem

The "taxi driver",,,,,reserved for low speed manouvers as far as I'm concerned, pulling away from a junction and reversing.

In relation to the mechanical parts of steering I notice that car manufacturers are starting to R&D electric servo motors that respond to movements in the steering wheel thus doing away with all the steering racks etc.

This however troubles me as to why anyone would want drive by wire steering your wheels as opposed a mechanical link and would it really save that much space and weight?

What do we think?


Andrew

I've read a fair bit about the new "adaptive" steering that BMW are fitting to some of their newer cars. This varies the ratio of the steering so that at low speed a small amount of wheel movement will give a large amount of lock for easy maneuvring, whereas at high speed the steering "gears down" to give greater sensitivity. Clearly this variable rate can only be achieved by using some sort of "drive by wire" steering system.

The practical benefit is that this more or less does away with the need to change grips on the wheel - eg a low speed U turn can be made without moving the hands away from the "quarter to three" position. So if we're all agreed that fixed input yields the best control, then that's a clear benefit of "drive by wire" steering!

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

The drive by wire would certainly save space and weight as you would be able to get rid of virtually all of the traditional steering components removing the PAS pump, steering rack and shaft, drop arm, drag link and the cross shaft. and replacing them with a couple of servos.

If the activities in my house are anything to go by steering will be achieved with the left thumb, acceleration with the right forefinger, braking with the left and the hand brake is applied with the right thumb but only at speeds in excess of 30 mph or it has no effect.

Not true. It's more like (well this is how it was described to me) a variable length lever system. The speed sensing servo adjust the length of the "lever" and so varies the steering ratio. There's a permanent mechanical connection from wheel to wheels as required under EU type approval regulations. A variable ratio servo system failure leaves you with fixed ratio steering rather than no steering at all.



And it all scares the hell out of me. I *know* the level of available grip by steering feedback. I find straight ahead in a skid by the steering wheel tug from the castor angle. I know if a front wheel locks up under braking because of the steering tugs. I don't want them to take these vital messages away. Neither do I want synthetic messages.

As far as the BMW variable ratio thing goes, folk are commenting that you never know how much lock to wind on - I'd much rather know, turn and then adjust if necessary - the idea of not knowing with certainty, in advance, what the effect of turning the wheel is... well, er... complete crap.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety