Safe Speed Forums

No easy solutions. Perhaps the frst place to start is in our classrooms and really hammer the point home about dangers. Mad Doc on this site has never kept it a secret as such that his adopted 5 year old son was born an addict. Mother died of overdose soon after he was born. They originally took him on as foster parents and have since adopted. Know they had a few sleepless nights in the early years. This kid will be an addict for life through no fault of his own.

But .. there are no easy solutions - but perhaps informed education - gather Mad Doc, Wildy and some of the other medics in family nip into schools and give strongly worded lectures on the dangers of using drugs. Of course, no idea how successful this is.... but would think they get message across to most kids as they appear to use right languageto them - and Wildy is always entertaining as well as informative by all accounts. She is also very shockingly graphic in description of the dangers as well - she came to Durham once and gave her talk in my own kids' school - and they tell me that she really spelled it out. About the only time she does get the spelling right



True ... but middle England does disapprove of drugs as collective. As said - we need a strong educational awareness programme for starters to try to prevent people from turning to these substances for solace or whatever reason. Creating further misery for oneself is not the way to solve a problem. Thus we need to explore why some will go down this route and then try to direct them away from it as much as we can.

Of course... like with initiating safe driving initiatives such as better L-testing, continuous learning, more traffic plods , - all costs money....

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No dissent here, but I thought all this had been tried. The main reason kids are exposed to illegal drugs is through peer pressure, and the fact they are available everywhere so difficult to avoid.

Then there's always the 'if it's illegal, it must be cool...' rebellious aspect. This is not helped by an environment where the substances are outlawed, but easily obtained. No wonder so many kids try 'em.

Personally I would rather Class A drugs had never been invented, like the nuclear bomb, and many other things. But there they are - everywhere. There has to be a better way forward than this.

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'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

I would just like to add my support to Rioman's view here. Prohibition doesn't work. It has been proven not to work, and we have all sorts of case studies that show it doesn't work, yet we still insist on pushing ahead with it when it comes to certain narcotics.

Taking drugs is a consensual act - there should be no consensual crimes, they just aren't the sort of thing anyone interested in Human Rights should be pushing for. Outlawing drugs is as ridiculous as outlawing gambling because it has a seedier underside.

The reason most drugs are so dangerous and surrounded by a crime culture is because of prohibition, not in spite of it. Just look at the US when alcohol was outlawed; organised crime went through the roof, and many thousands of people dropped dead or were permanently afflicted thanks to bootleg liquor. The parallel is clear, yet almost always ignored.

There have even been social experiments in the UK where drugs were legalised with spectacularly good results, but these trials were then canned, mostly because of deeply entrenched views, as seen in this thread:


From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0 ... 59,00.html

I'm surprised at the views of some people in this thread, especially considering their stance on other matters. We should be pushing for education about drug use, and looking at supplying clean supplies to those who most need it, instead of pushing them down dark alleys to deal with people who care not a jot about the users health, and far more about what crap they can cut their gear with to make the most profit. No-one is suggesting that heroin is available from your local newsagents, but those who want to take it, will take it, so providing a clean, controlled supply seems to make perfect sense to me.

I strongly recommend reading the Guardian article I linked to though, it's pretty much in line with my stance and makes its point far more eloquantly than I ever could.

Oh, and I'm not someone who comes from a background of having tried anything and everything - I smoke the odd joint socially, and have tried mushrooms (which are completely legal at present, and sold all over the shop, yet despite what is implied in this thread, we don't have a nation of insane lunatics running around commiting their crimes whilst off their head on them), but outside of that, I'm not bothered. I'm just very much of the opinion that you should be able to do whatever you want to your own body, should you so choose.

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Carl Prescott

Of course - would help if celebs did not use these drugs either. That's where the "cool" and daft idea that drugs do not hurt emanate from.

Sure- we have always had drug education in schools - but the quality of this is varied. Teachers do not know that much about them - especially older teachers. Our family members found they were educating staff as well as students when they went into these schools to talk about drugs, HIV and so on. BiBs do the road sense stuff in our patch...

Perhaps we should give these drugs a lower profile as well....to make it seem less "cool" and out moded .. Just a passing thought - part of it is the "glam" of taking same drug as celeb.. only there is nothing glam about dying in a pool of vomit or splattered against either a car bonnet or windscreen as result of attempting to drive and speeding excessively whilst on speed....

To make drugs less easy to purchase... we have to really concentrate on the real "speed merchants" - the dealers and barons....
Funnily enough - you'd be amazed how many we manage to nab on a routine traffic plod patrol....yet another reason to keep traffic police numbers up instead of reducing for scams.

Also .. we could do with silly paperwork being scrapped as well... most of it is pointless....

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Oh right, like when the US made it difficult to buy alcohol you mean, so everything moves into the hands of the organised crime cartels. Worked a treat that did. In fact, wasn't their solution to that problem just to legalise it again...

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Carl Prescott

Carl - the problem lies in fact that these drugs alter the mind - and you get addicted very, very quickly.

We can legalise - but all colours of government will hike up the tax on the substances to deter use. They do it with our derv and petrol to try to curb useage. Does not work in this case as most of us rely on cars for a practical purpose. Drug taking is not really for a practical purpose...is it?

I do not need to take drugs to get a life or a high or "escape" from a hum drum life. Guess I am lucky in that respect... always been assertive and confident enough not to have to rely on a substance to induce this in me.

Realise this insecurity and feeling of "unwantedness" may be an underlying reason for some to dabble. Some just may wish to experience the general high elan they perceive it to give.... and perhaps it gives an ephemeral blast which they wish to experience again. But this is really short lived - isn't it? As the body changes with the addiction - it spirals downwards into depression - and they overdose at this point in all probability.

Much more to this than "nannying" or "personal freedom". What personal freedom? They appear to be imprisoning themselves in a viscious circle of fix, high, low, fix.... Carl.. that's not really living a life.. surely...



Alcohol in excess can be just as deadly as a Class A drug - and it can drastically change a personality. I got the bruises to prove it ... on endless weekends in the past. If they are high on other substances as well - they are completely out of their minds - and totally out of control. I got the scars from these in the past....

The guy who pulled knife on me on a routine pull some years ago... drug dealer.

But ... we legalise - tax high ... these thugs will undercut and sell cheap and still retain profit margin as result. Difference being - more customers as it's legal.

We could -as mentioned - prescribe on NHS...but even then...supplies would be limited and an addict's appetite will grow. Where wil they get fresh supplies from ... black market dealers... who will charge same high prices and crimes will still be committed to fund.

Carl - that's the real picture and what I will be expected to deal with and protect public from.

I hate some of the laws I am forced by nature of my job to enforce - but drugs ones - I have no qualms about. Saw what those pain killers did to Wildy that time and am more than aware of their problem with the adopted child - if he's ill - they have a problem with how he can be treated. Fortunately - she's a drugs specialist...



Swiss have a Needle Park in Zurich, Bern, Basel. They found crime dropped initially - but it's back up again. They still have to buy the drugs.

But it depends on how much we can afford to prescribe. NHS budgets - like police and education budgets - are tight. People will rightly wish to know why heroin is offered on prescription. The addiction is of their own making. People of Liverpool probably objected - especially when they found they were denied other medicines for non-self-inflicted ailments.

Carl - that's the way of the world. People objected because they saw this heroin prescription as being reason why they were denied precriptive drugs for genuine ailments.

But perhaps .. towards the end crime was creeping up because more wants more and what do you do if you used up your prescribed entitlement? Suspect this was the case looking back at Merseyside's actual crime figures as recorded in Police Data files - raw, rough and ready horse'mouth sources....



Exactly - but some of our teachers do not know enough themselves and there are very few caring Swiss felines around who will offer expert knowledge to schools in locality



Not really worked in Switzerland. Once they use up clean stuff - they seek more at high price. More will induce craving for more.




But.. as said...we still have problem as to what they will do once they have used up their allowance of clean substance. And do no deceive yourself that a government will not tax high. They will to cover potential NHS costs treating the overdoses and neurological diseases which would follow.

Either that - or we all get lumbered with a tax hike to cover this potential minefield of spiralling health costs.

Keeping it illegal with threat and stigma of criminal record can deter a good many from temptation.



Lentils.....

It needs a lot of thinking through and risk assessments so far point to this being on costs and other ensuing dangers as mentioned above.



Carl... you are not a BiB. You do not know what I really deal with here.

It is not a question of "it's my body and I can do what I like to it". It's a question of how that substance affects that person and ultimately his immediate society and environment. I have seen results of addict "going off on one" when he cannot get a fix.

Legalisation could lead to more trying out these drugs. Prescriptions would be limited and they would turn to dealers to get more just the same.

Agree - we need beter education as to the dangers and we need to find out why these people turn to taking these substances so that we can at least help persuade them not to try it out in the first place.

It really is a miserable life and a form of imprisonment to be dependent and addicted to these drugs.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Carl - alcohol has its dangers - but on addiction and so on - not on a close par with hard drugs.

Prohibiting booze was unreasonable as with moderation - it is harmless.

Heroin, on the other hand, even when taken in moderation .. person can be scary when suffering withdrwal symptoms and wanting their fix.

Am sure neither of the Mad cats will be offended if I add that Wildy:neko: was fairly aggressive when we were weaning off those painkillers... In fact - she was very aggressive....

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

By all means punish people for the crimes they commit whilst on (or off of) drugs, but many people can do these things perfectly responsibly. And in that case, who are you to say what they can and can't do to themselves?

Your argument is in direct contrast to your views on speeding: you say speeding in itself is not dangerous, but can exagerate the effects of any accident that takes place. I say taking drugs in itself is not dangerous, but can exagerate the effects of any crime the user might choose to commit.

There is no difference.

Prohibition is in place purely to pander to the lowest common denominator, which is something I thought we were all against here?

People will take drugs regardless of the effects, and regardless of their legality. Alcohol prohibition demonstrates all these points perfectly, and is a lesson to us all, but I notice that even in your very thorough response to my post, you ignored it entirely. What do you see as the difference between that and other drug prohibition?

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Carl Prescott

PS Carl and Rioman

Not being the died in the wool - dynosaur of an old farty policeman..

Basically pointing out that legalisation of hard drugs will not resolve and could make a bad situation worse still.

I unfortunately know what I meet and deal with -

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Which particular drugs? I would consider alcohol a nastier, more damaging drug than marijuana, mushrooms, cocaine, MDMA, speed and any number of others. But as always, it's about moderation, anything to excess is damaging, that's why it's an excess! Heroin is a very, very safe drug in its pure form, though admittedly very addictive, but that's exactly why you want people that are taking it getting it from a clean source where they can be monitored.

There is no known drug that becomes safer when its supply is handed over to criminals, and that's a fact.


So are all the drugs I quoted above. To excess, they can all be deadly (though to be fair there are no cases of death from marijuana overdose that I know of), alcohol included.


Are you proposing we ban painkillers because they have a negative effect as well as a positive one?

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Carl Prescott

And I'm more than happy for all the sorts you have to deal with to be locked up, if they're affecting others like you say. But, for those that wish to take drugs responsibly, why should they be prevented from doing so, just because some other people find it distasteful?

70-odd years of prohibition has failed very, very miserably, it's time to look at dealing with it another way...

EDIT - I guess it depends how you see the problem really, I see drug abuse as a public health issue, not a police matter, but obviously most others seem to disagree with me. If the plan is to save lives, legalising things is the right way to go. If the plan is to stop people taking drugs entirely, then it probably isn't, but prohibition ain't achieving either.

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Carl Prescott

This thread has ben quite enlightening, particularly the views of Rioman and CarlP versus the established ones of In-Gear. Can I just throw my tuppence worth in to the pot (just realised..no pun intended ).
Over the past 30 years Great Britain has been a veritable petri-dish of social experimentation. We've experienced changing, some would say softened, attitudes towards human rights, meddled with our education system until it weeps, relaxed our stance on punishment and discipline particularly with respect to our younger people and championed the rights of the individual over those of society as a whole.
And what has this brought us, a utopian society full of indioviduals who enjoy their new freedoms and respect the rights of others to enjoy theirs? Like hell!
Relaxing attitudes towards anything invariably results in someone taking advantage, usually to the detriment of others. We now live in a selfish and slowly disintegrating society where those who can be trusted to play by the rules are preyed upon by the urban wolves who can't, won't, don't respect anyone or anything.
Legalising drugs won't just result in responsible people enjoying their freedom to do as they please in their own home (or however else you wish to couch it). It will generate a load more addicts from the section of society that already suffers the worst fallouts from alcohol and drug abuse.

Even in moderation - Carl...effects are not pretty. Of course, lot depends on individual bio-chemistry. People are allergic to tannin - and thus red wines are off menu. As is tea and coffee and Worcestershire Sauce....

Some people have idiosyncrasy to these drugs as well - and if they tried in "belief that they are safe to use because No 10 has decided they are legal" - then they die. Also people will try them because if they are "legal" they are then "safe".

I have this argument all the time with homeopathic stuff they buy over the counter frm Gypsy Gina's Quack Cure Emporium. St John's Wort can have some funny side effects - espeically if it runs across another substance in the body

I even have folks tellling me that the stuff I prescribe (cost of £700 per treatment to NHS and a prescription charge to my paitent - unless they are daft enough to want my private version - in which case ... er.... er ... uum is enhanced by this stuff. Apparently - they read it in the Guardian and on the Net

Of course - and you know that I posted about the dangers of booze on here from medical point of view and IG takes the plod viewpoint and added to my post from his stance. But you know we are related through my wife anyway.


But ..with these drugs it is never a question of moderation. Addiction is quick to take hold. Addicts never do things in moderation. They think they do .. and I know this from what they would say when I did my A&E stint. I also know this because in my field - virology - come across the HIV from the sahred needles. Even when I provide needles - and we do - they do not use them. Habits of sharing needles... just as hard to kick as the addiction itself.


If you recall - spelled out effects of booze on the brain last year on this forum. Drug in bloodstream also affects the neurons in the brain which control levels of serotonin etc. These are the essential bio-chemical substances which power up our brains. If you like - it's the oil in the engine which keeps all the nerve centres lubricated. These drugs - over time - destroy this substance and compromise the bodies ability to manufacture it. That's what happens within your body. Alcohol in excess - attacks other cells - and severly damages the liver in particular.

Heroin, MDMA can do a similar demolition job of a liver - admittedly it takes longer than excess booze to do so - but it does lead to it eventually and if you drink heavily as well - severe liver diseases will occur much more quickly.



IG has already mention the Needle Parks in Switzerland. We are very conversant with these. One of Wildy's family helped establish them and is one of medic running it over there. That family is very large and very well educated.



Carl - all drugs are dangerous. Even aspirin. We know this. But some are very, very dangerous - and this is why we only allow use under prescribed supervision. No drug should be used for "recreation and leisure".. Alcohol... wine has some benefits when used in moderation - as has beer and even whiskey. But heroin etc.. no benefits as such.



So are all the drugs I quoted above. To excess, they can all be deadly (though to be fair there are no cases of death from marijuana overdose that I know of), alcohol included.
[/quote]

I had one death from alcohol abuse as junior. Later on in my carreer - had a death brought on by excess use of cannabis. OK - guy had idiosyncrasy as we discovered on autopsy - but he would be alive now if he had not smoked the weed for long period of time.




First to IG - not offended that you mentioned Wildy's little furball of the past.

No - do not htink IG is suggesting this at all. Painkillers which Wildy needed at the time were very strong morphine based. They were supposed to be used sparingly. She was wracked with severe pain for a long time after that incident. 80 mph up the rear end is not exactly a small shunt up the backside.

Unfortunately for me, she popped a pill each time it was "unbearable" and ended up developing a tolerance for them. Weaning her off was difficult. Would not wish to go through it again or want others to experience it for themselves.

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Smily to penny.. penny to pound
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Ah but Carl... as Riggers points out... few do take drugs responsibly... perhaps due to poor education. But bottom line is why should they need to in the first place? There is no reason why heroin should be desirable to experience - other than fact that a few chav celebs allegedly take it.

Do visit local schools and give talk about HIV and touch on needle abuse - and this reinforces whatever Wildy has said about it in her talk to same local schools. Proof of whether or not we got throught to thes children will probably show in few years - I hope they never turn up as HIV induced through shared needle or unsafe sex in the future.


quote="Carl"]
70-odd years of prohibition has failed very, very miserably, it's time to look at dealing with it another way...

EDIT - I guess it depends how you see the problem really, I see drug abuse as a public health issue, not a police matter, but obviously most others seem to disagree with me. If the plan is to save lives, legalising things is the right way to go. If the plan is to stop people taking drugs entirely, then it probably isn't, but prohibition ain't achieving either.[/quote]

As said - perhaps best route is through a much better education programme which delivers on the dangers.

Opium was legal once - people died just the same. And the trouble with UK ... they never know when enough is enough.... sunbathing, booze., drugs... always in extreme.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Just a quick thought to throw into the debate, and just for the sake of clarity I'll put myself in the Carl and Co camp.

I think perspective has a lot to do in these kind of debates. Invariably the topic of drugs is an emotional one, and people often have personal experiences one way or the other. I get the impression that those in Law Enforcement and Medicine who deal with the fall out of those who use drugs to excess don't necessarily take into account those who do use drugs, to moderation, on a regular basis (I will add at this point, it has been 18 months since I last smoked and several years since I last used Class As). Not just the people who enjoy a Pills at the weekend, or a smoke in the evening, but those in well paid jobs who hold down well respected jobs while sustaining a heroin habit.

I often have discussions with Medical family members (anti-legalisation) who regularly bring up examples of how drugs have ruined families, destroyed lives (I'm sure they could quote hundreds of examples) etc... and yes, in each case they have, but, this is because they are Medics, the only time they get involved with people is when they are in trouble! No one is going to pop to their GP, get a check up and casually mention that they are a RDU!

Anyways, I just thought it should be acknowledged that there is a significant proportion of RDUs out there who aren't destroying their lives, who can exercise moderation and may well be your Bank Manager!

There will always be a fringe highly criminal organisation if we legalise. Bit like prostitution in Australia and Holland, They legalised brothel - but they still have a very criminal and highly dangerous fringe.

Jack Straw is even considering re-classiffying cannabis to former status as current policy is proven to have failed dismally




There is little moderation. Addicts I meet on regular basis are definitely not moderate in their use. Medics in this family see same...

Avrerage Brit - if you look at behaviur when the sun shines or when booze is offered freely have not idea of restraint. This behaviur will extend to drug use and if we legalise - message will be one of safety. We are already seeiing this by persiostently telling people they will not be killed at 30 mph. Result? They drive at 30 mph even if 30 mph is too fast for the condition....

Most on this site know that safe speed depends on road conditions and weather through extra education and learning. Majority out there - believe the government and if this government tells them by virute of "legalisation" that heroin is "safe" - these idiots will go ahead and use it to extremis.



Most of the professional people I meet have no such habit - even in moderation. I can tell a drug addict at a glance - trained to do so.

You would be surprised at the level of training we get....people do not realise... body language, voice, tone, manner - we are trained to identify and spot and cop people through their fibs...

But as said.. never needed to support my lifestyle by using anything, Occasionally drink whiskey, beer and wine...but these are normal tipples to lubricate my "choirboy" voice

[quopte="Peyote"]
I often have discussions with Medical family members (anti-legalisation) who regularly bring up examples of how drugs have ruined families, destroyed lives (I'm sure they could quote hundreds of examples) etc... and yes, in each case they have, but, this is because they are Medics, the only time they get involved with people is when they are in trouble! No one is going to pop to their GP, get a check up and casually mention that they are a RDU![/quote]

Yup... our medics and self pick up the pieces...and the ruined lives outweigh the "can hold and moderate my use of heroin" types.... and they deceive themselves because sooner or later - it will ruin them.

Mad doc has already said... even if he dishes out clean needles - he is up against habitual practice of shared needles. There is a lot of education required on subject of drugs and the dangers of the drug use ... and deglamourisation is first on my list of corrective education. Nothing glam in dying in pool of vomit through an overdose or by causing a car crash and taking others out with you.

In both examples - you should think of my squeamish nature... I throw up each time. Even after all these years on the job....





Always knew there was summat dodgy about that fella!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Well.. for a start (and I hate posting the BiB thing ) it's my job to arrest people for doing things which are illegal - and taking drugs, being a social danger, trying to chuck themselves off a motorway bridge in a suicide attempt are some of the things I tell people professionally they cannot do to themselves....

Yup.. had the suicide from top of a building once... had to try to persuade her not to jump...

Still think I am not supposed to tell someone what they can and cannot do to themselves? Apart from that - she might have landed on motorist parking his car below and killed him... and then I throw up when it's messy....



Speeding is not dangerous if we apply COAST principles - but I'd be a fool if I did not point out the dangers of excess and mistake.


Not exaggerating what happens if you hit a tree at speed - if you are referring to the shock post I made once. Not exxaggerating the effects of a 200mph blat in Teesdale.. his limbs were spread around a wide area and we all lost our coffee and doughnuts in the wee small hours that morning. But these incidents occurred because one or more of the COAST skills was missing. And if yuou are drugged up - you are not going to be able to handle a machine at speed. Heroin makes you sleepy... fatigue and falling asleep at the wheel feature quite often in our fatals nationwide. Trouble is - we focus so much on speed as cause - the stats for the rest tend to be ignored.



Considering they are not in control of their minds...crimes they commit whilst under the influence are extremely serious and even life threatening to another. Thus - taking drugs is dangerous to user and others.


Perhaps - it could be because my life is spent picking up the pieces of the ruined lives and because I see the violence of addict on withdrawal very often in the line of duty that I see the real dangers of these drugs.

As said.. even if we legalise... there will still be serious organised crime in the fringes, afore-mentioned drawbacks - high taxation either on the druig or on everyone else if prescribed. And if we prescribe it - they will want more after they have used up the prescription because feeding habits increases appetite and addiction - they'll go to the organised gangster fringes to get extra supplies.

It needs a very serious thinking thorugh. We cannot glibly suggest "legalise" as an answer to a problem in this case.
#
Normal bloke driving a car a bit fast - different if he is normal safe driver with basic COAST skills.



I think there is a big difference between alert driver driving car competently and person who requires a drug to get through life. But am old fashioned and a father as well as a policeman. And as policeman - I am "ambassador for the law" to certain extent....I am outspoken about bad law and tend not to enforce bad law to the letter. As regards laws concerning dangerous drugs...I will enforce this... but never necessarily nabbed the odd joint smoker in the past Growing cannabis was a different matter



True... and it is sad they feel the need to. I would hope that we try to improve the education on the dangers and maybe discover why they need to do this to themselves in order to help them away from it.



Alcohol prohibtion was plain daft. Odd drinky has been around since before Jesus was a lad - in fact Bible says He liked wine..He did turn water to wine in one story...

Thus .. safe - Jesus drank wine! No mention of Him smoking a joint though...

But alcohol despite its dangers when used in excess (and I am more than aware of dangers as dealt with more drunks in my lifetime than you'e probably had the proverbial hot dinner ) is not as addictive as these drugs. Alcoholism builds up over a long period. Addiction to a Class A is almost immediate by comparison and withdrawal symptoms are frequent and can be violent.

And violent thugs and organised crime....we remove bootleg booze ..we still have a black market trading in hypermarket stuff. Might be less prevalent as French upped taxation - but still cheaper than here and they still buy up and sell on - even undercutting Gordon's price - they stillmake profits.

We would still have a fringe trading in drugs for reasons explained. Also - they would increase trade in people smuggling, and other eually dubious activities - and we could include trading in dodgy foods, toys, and so on.

Criminals will always find something to trade in -illegally. They may even commit the burglaries and fence the stuff. Organised burglary rings were quite common in the past - you know.



As said - USA had prohibition on booze which proved disastrous. But even legalsied - there is still a fringe on cheap and illegal imports - avoiding import tariffs.

Fringe would stil be there if we legalise these drugs. But the main difference is in the ease of addiction and speed at which the life is ruined. Alcohol takes longer to get to that level of dependency and addiction.

But I see damage of both ... and would still say a drunk is easier to deal with than an addict on aggregate. In a car - easier to detect as well and easier to test ...

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

The trouble is, laws are made in the spirit, that we all have to live together in one society, and laws are to protect the wishes of the majority, or give a sense of order.

We drive on the left, because to have a free for all would cause chaos, (and bus maufacturers know what side to put the doors on!).
We make drugs illegal, because they cause harm to some people in some circumstances. Now we have created a climate where a criminal takes advantage of the law, to make money.
Celebrities dont have to steel to pay for drugs, but this is not the case for others. Maybe we should'nt give celebrities quite so much money - it's hard to imagine Sir John Mills taking drugs, or binge drinking, and ending up on the front cover of the News of the World - but some of our other "stars"??? You all know which ones should be chopped down to size financially!!!!!!

The real answer MIGHT be a ruthless dictatorship, police state, where known drug dealers are killed on sight, no questions asked (rule by fear), but this would be considered unpalatable by most.

So here we are, stuck in a society with "rights" and "freedoms" where you cannot say what is right or wrong and be correct in everyones eyes.
Educating the population into being socially in tune with their neighbours would be an ideal utopia, but in this day and age it's just not going to happen!


That is SO TRUE! And our newspapers fuel this stupid behaviour!
Learn from history - Roman society broke up when they were allowed the personal freedom to do as they pleased, and became decadent and weak.
It can happen HERE, in the not too distant future.

Our BiB members, do you think publishing details of vandalism or grafiti is counter productive? I would ban the reporting of it unless police were expecting leads from it, and would NEVER give out the scale of it on the grounds it encourages others to "go one better".

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I'm afraid I'm unlikely to have time today to jump back in the debate, but I'd like to pick up on one point:


You're on about addicts, one extreme of the drug-taking spectrum. Alcohol addicts will commit crimes and are often of no sound mind, but you don't think that everyone who drinks alcohol is the same, do you? The vast majority can take it in moderation.

The same is true with any drug. For every insane addict you deal with, there are probably a hundred people on the same drug taking it perfectly responsibly and leading a normal life. You will never be exposed to these people of course, so your view is skewed towards those you are exposed to.

Besides, like I say, if you want to help addicts, the best thing in the world you can do for them is give them a clean, cheap, readily available supply without pushing them to the criminal underworld. The study in the UK pretty much proved it; acquisitive crime down to zero, deaths down to zero, what more could you possibly want from a drug policy?

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Carl Prescott

Actually I had a rethink and came up with another solution, one which I fear may prove to be a little too right wing for some tastes.
Satellite imagery to identify the sources of the raw material for the illicit drugs trade followed by a first class delivery of napalm or chemical spray.