Safe Speed Forums

Have you driven much lately?



Dream on!

_________________
I stole this .sig

Overtaking is certainly becoming a 'lost art'

I suppose it must be linked to a declining number of people using single carriageway roads for long distance journeys.

Its certainly exacerbated by the 40mph limit for HGV's.

I took a bit of a journey yesterday, along the fosse way. You would not believe the number of drivers who wouldn't exceed 50mph, wouldn't overtake even in the most opportune of locations. Bunched up behind HGV's so that they couldn't see the opportunity even if they were inclined to pass.

These drivers are not all careful, drivers making 'steady' progress, from what I saw yesterday many are nervous drivers lacking the confidence to carry out perfectly legal manouvers.

Besingwerk, am I mistaken or are you implying that tailgating is a justifiable method of not being overtaken?

I’m saying two things. First, there is no obligation in queues of slow traffic on congested roads to leave space for the car behind you to squeeze in. If you think about it, that could not be logical, because each time you overtook a driver, you would have to leave room for him to overtake you back, creating a dangerous form of motorised leap frog! In any case, drivers are very adept at political game theory, and will soon notice that if they leave a large gap, they get filtered to the back of the queue, which is not their goal. So tailgating may not be a justifiable method of not being overtaken, but it is an inevitable method of not getting pushed to the back of the queue. For my part, in a queue, I attempt not to get leap frogged, but I’ll make a gap if a guy gets in trouble (even though he may richly deserve to be smashed in).

Second, I am saying is that it is an inevitable consequence of less road bandwidth. There is less road bandwidth because there are many more people on the move, without a commensurate increase in the amount of roads. I put it to you that overtaking is more risky in queues of slow traffic on congested roads, and that you perceive this traffic change as ‘overtaking becoming a lost art’. What is really happening is that roads are more congested and people are more aggressive.

That is what I say.

PS: the Fosse was made by the Romans, and now look how much traffic it carries!

_________________
I stole this .sig

Here's a challenge for you then. Seriously.

Next time you're out and about, you just try counting vehicles that are behaving agressively and those that aren't. I appreciate that half a dozen aggressive drivers are highly noticable in an hour's driving - but how many other drivers do you encounter in an hour who aren't aggressive?

And we have to be clear about the definition of aggressive. Assertive isn't aggressive. And careless stupid tailgating isn't aggressive.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yes! I have often though we could do with a kind of 'DO YOU FEEL LUCKY, PUNK!' light on the back. Or even a lamp on the back to flash a type of morse code, so that we can send all manner of messages (I can think of some good ones!) to other drivers!

_________________
I stole this .sig

Fair enough - I'll let you know what I find.

_________________
I stole this .sig

I don't know about obligation, but they still need to keep a safe distance behind. Quite often the bunching makes that too small, never mind room for an overtaker to get in safely.
:yesyes: Seems to be another one of those times when you're really largely in agreement with SafeSpeeders, but you so often manage to sound like you're not . Okay, so if we agree on the problem, what's the solution? Currently I deal with it in much the same way you said. Give the frustrated (and possibly unwise) overtaker enough space to complete their overtake safely - worth it if only to avoid the risk of getting invloved in someone else's collision. But this is really not much of a solution is it? You seem to recognise that the problem is one of human nature not working in its own best interests (for the whole queue of drivers I mean). I think the choice is between fighting like hell to change human nature, or changing the roads to allow as much safe overtaking as possible and training drivers how to do it safely. The latter is costly in pure monetary terms, but I'm sure the former is futile. That makes it a no brainer AFAIC.


I think we have to bite the bullet and fix the bandwidth. Wonder how much the network could have been upgraded for, say, the cost of a bloody good war in the Middle East [Ben Elton voice]ooo bit of politics[Ben Elton].

As for the agression... well, how much of that is brought about by frustration with the situation. Not an excuse I know, but a possible cause all the same. If so, isn't it a cause that ought to be removed, or at least mitigated as far as is possible? I think there's a little bit more to it than that though. Like you, I think we're a less courteous society than we once were, and that we see it on the roads as much as anywhere else in modern life. What to do about that I have no idea, but as far as the roads are concerned if someone is going to be an idiot I'd rather the system could cope with his stupidity instead of have him take someone else out.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Not perfect, but with a fast car, and a mere 3 vehicles in front of me, I would have passed them miles back

However when baulked by this situation there are two choices - sit there maintaining a safe gap that the "suicidal" can pull into if necessary, while the tedium forces my mind into neutral, or find an alternative route.

I really don't care if somebody passes me, and I would rather give them a safe space to pull into, so when stuck in 4 or further back, I am actually that rare person that does leave a 2 second+ gap.

But I prefer the alternative route option - that I why I have a Sat Nav system, and a car that likes the white roads. I know that it may not be any faster (normally slower), but at least I am free to think for myself and keep myself stimulated.



A huge generalisation there - believe it or not, there isn't always another truck a bit further on, and I never said to get angry or do anything stupid. Believe it or not, in the hundreds of millions of vehicle miles each year only a very small percentage actually involve a trip to the cemetery. If you then exclude those where you are a rear passenger with a very reclined seating position we are talking about, at most, a few hundred fatal overtaking collisions each year. I would be able to give you figures, but those that do have this information are refusing to tell because it exposes the 1/3 lie.



There is this stick thing by the side of your steering wheel, if when you spot an overtaking opportunity, you wish to overtake, you push this stick up and these flashy light things call indicators come on. You can pull out after checking those mirror things that are not just for checking your makeup.

Now you might argue that these evil petrol-head monsters will come screaming past you before you have had a chance to react, but this is not true unless you take ages to make up your mind. Firstly those idiots coming up from behind are behind you. This means that you are first to see the passing opportunity, as you come around the corner, or if you need to wait for an oncoming vehicle, it passes you first. Even if they are the car right behind you it still takes time to accellerate up to your position - this is not a microsecond thing, it takes a couple of seconds at least for a dangerous potential clash to develop. In either case you can indicate first because you see the opportunity first. Secondly, petrol-head behind you knows that it is a dangerous move passing multiple vehicles in one move, and the one thing that they are really, really looking out for is somebody indicating and pulling out without looking.

The thing that your group of "ideal world" drivers, that are too close to the vehicles in front, need is some training either in confidence so that they make decisive moves rather than faffing for 20 seconds before deciding that this might actually be a good spot to pass, or in considerate driving where they think about how they could help other people make progress even if they don't want to.

The instances I witnessed yesterday were not as a result of particularly conjested roads, nor did I witness anything that I could describe as aggressive.

What I witnessed were a number of slow moving HGV's (restricted by law) trailed by a procession of vehicles who's drivers were either disinclined or lacked the confidence to overtake. Instead they tailgated and effectively caused a 'rolling block'. What was worse was the convoy of 4 slow moving cars that I had to sit behind, no speed limit excuses there!

Nothing wrong with the band width on the Fosse way yesterday that a few lessons in confidence and assertiveness wouldn't solve.

If those clearly nervous drivers I witnessed yesterday had left sufficient space then others may have been able to pass the slow moving vehicles at the front of the queue. Who knows had they held back a little they may have spotted the opportunities and passed themselves!

I'm afraid that I don't concur with Basingwerk's assertation that tailgating is inevitable. You seem to be saying that tailgating is inevitable so we should accept it and move on.

Reading through these posts, it is obvious that each author has a situation in his mind which is'nt necessarily the same as the next persons.
Each overtaking manouvre is (or should be) governed by the unique circumstances. This would make it dangerous to try and impose a "one style fits all" set of instructions.
Twice in the last week I have seen drivers attempt an overtake where they had no chance of safely completing the manouvre without imposing on the vehicles being passed to make up for their poor judgement.
In one case one of the cars being overtaken had L plates on, and the driver was seriously inconvenienced enough for the overtake to be dangerous. The L plates indicated that the driver's level of skills placed him at a disadvantage.

In an incident yeaterday on the A590 towards Kendal, just before Newby Bridge, two vehicles attempted to pass 7 cars in a length of dual carriageway which was insufficient for one, let alone two cars to complete the manouvre, at the speeds they were already travelling at.
Consequently as they approached the end of the dual carriageway, car 1 was struggling to pass the lead queue car to pull in, and car 2 was still alongside the lead queue car, and should have slowed to pull in behind.
He did not. He continued over the hatched lines, until he had passed, by which time he was on the wrong side of the road, then pulled in behind car 1. Given the distance between the queue car and car 1, he ended up tailgating car 1 by about three feet, and forced the queue car into tailgating him at a similar distance until the queue car slowed down EVERYONE still behind him, in order to preserve a safe distance ahead.
Car 1 was unable to continue at his overtake speed because of the onset of a tight right hand bend and junction - JT I assume you know where I mean - opposite the Swan Hotel!
It is easy to think a dual carriageway presents a golden opportunity for passing, but if the speeds are already high, and the dualed section short, it CAN be risky, unless you have a car which can accellerate to a high enough speed, and brake back down safely.
If a driver is second or third in a queue, and is NOT intending to pass, then they should be prepeared to be passed, and filtered to the back of the queue. I say this because in practice, the car that displaces them only does so until they pass the obstructing vehicle.

I always pull over to allow the safe and easy passage of a faster vehicle past me, providing it is safe to do so - especially when it is a motorcycle. If it is clearly unsafe, I hold a line which makes it clear, until it becomes safe. I will also slow to make an overtake easier. It is safer for me, safer for the overtaking driver, and anyone else travelling the same stretch of road.
This attitude is sadly lacking in motorists who are either not observant enough, or simply dont give a damn about anyone else. A better standard of training would go some way to remedying this, and would address a whole raft of other issues too.


The trouble with that course, is that SOME drivers will feel you pinched their opportunity, and tailgate you through the manouvre. If something untoward happens in front of you, you have lost the avenue of dropping back and rejoining the queue.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Is it really that difficult to spot whose going to overtake and who isn't? All the tell tale signs there that they want to get past at the first opportunity, the offset to the right driving position, the bent head trying to gain a better view and slightly hung back from the vehicle in front all say to me that driver wants to get past the vehicle in front. Only if(and this is very rare in my expierence) all the signs are there but they do not take a perfectly safe opportunity is it potentially a dangerous situation and maybe best to wait.

If the driver in front is showing signs that he wants to overtake then of course I will hang on a let him do so. If however they have missed a couple of good oppurtunities then I will consider overtaking them both, providing there is a good enough gap.

Only the other day I was using the A65 between the M6 and Long Preston, and came across a line of about 10 vehicles following a HGV doing 40mph. After witnessing no overtaking from any vehicle in two excellent opportunities I stoked up the engine on this old Master van I was in and spotting a long straight I checked my mirrors, signalled and overtook 5 cars before I saw a vehicle approaching a some distance. The chap in the Astra I pulled in front of wasn't happy even though he had left a nice gap and upon the car passing I checked my mirror, signalled and overtook the final 4 cars and the HGV giving me a clear run until Nelson. At no point in this manuvere did I feel in anyway uncomftable, and I barely exceeded 60mph. Even when the car approached in the opposite direction I had plenty of time to tuck in. Watching in my mirrors still nobody overtook desite a huge straight. Was I wrong to overtake 10 vehicles? Or were the other 9 vehicles wrong in not overtaking despite a straight which I overtook 10 vehicles on? Personally I'd have preferred other vehicles to have overtaken the HGV, but seeing as they weren't I thought I executed the manuvere with some aplomb.

If I have no intentions of overtaking the vehicle in front then I try to show my intentions by leaving a decent gap for someone to pull into and if they are looking like they want to overtake then I'll move slightly over to the left to give them a better view of the road. Sometimes they will overake me but fail to get past the vehicle in front. No problem I've only lost one position. Most drivers are switched on enough to realise that if that if the car in front of me can't get past the slower vehicle then theres no point two of them trying so it's not often I will start to get 'filtered down the queue'.

To conclude this it shows up why it is vastly important to regularly check your mirrors, something that should be drummed into those that don't. If there is a suicidal driver trying to force is way through the pack then regular mirror checks will have picked him up and enabled me to create an emergency gap for him to go into. Unlike some on this forum(BW) I certainly don't think he deserves to be smashed up. Perhaps there are mitigating circumstances like a family emergency or his wife in labour. Few reasons would excuse this behavoir, but some would mitigate it. Whatever the reason I'd prefer him to be in front of me then behind so will make an effort to let him(or her) overtake me if they so wish.

Surely the situation is that

Some drivers want to overtake and some do not for various reasons, therefore common courtesy and manners dictates that if you are a non overtaker then you allow space in front of you for overtakers to move into
this lets them go and keeps them calm, also allows you space in case of problems.
If you want to overtake signal clearly and use the advanced overtake position before going then get past as quickly as possible (except that the yellow box or the Talivan may get you as they contribute to road safety - NOT)

I wonder if some people have heard of give and take and have ever applied it to potentially confrontational driving problems?
Of course there is always going to be the selfish idiot who doesn't care but let them get out of your way

_________________
Stupid is as Stupid does

Thats your definition of aggressive. To many people assertiveness is aggression insomuchas the driving that results from these mindsets can be indistinguishable from one another.

I think this post very nicely sums up the position, to which I could add that some drivers, when they see another driver attempting to overtake the slowcoaches at the head of the queue, will awake from their slumber and pull out in front of the overtaker on the grounds that the road must be clear enough for an overtake even though they themselves haven't looked and probably can't see anyway.

What you say is interesting. It embodies two of my favourite philosophies - fear and greed as main motivators, and the Turing Test!

First, the Turing Test that suggests that two systems that behave identically ARE identical, as far as any external observer is concerned. If assertiveness and aggression are perceived to be similar, they have a similar effect on the road system as a whole. For example, if assertiveness (e.g. overtaking and pushing in) is perceived as greed, and drivers see lots of people being greedy all the time, then greed becomes the cultural norm. Yes, that’s what has happened here.

Second, people are aggressive/assertive out of fear and greed. That explains why they 'guard' their space in queues to stop people from behind from getting ahead of them. They are greedy for time, and fearful of losing their road space.

BTW: I’m keeping count of aggression/fear and greed instances. The count on last night’s 10 mile journey was:
1) Fear and Greed – 4 impatient and needless overtakes, a few tailgaters when I was near/at the limit in a village.
2) Aggression - 1 mad overtake in the hatched zone near a junction and 1 mad speeder on a bend.
I’d put that in the ‘very easy journey’ category – much better than average.

_________________
I stole this .sig

There is another way - easy for me to say as I have good direction-finding skills and love maps. If stuck behind long queues with little opportunity for overtaking, find an alternative route. Many unclassified roads are wide, relatively direct and carry little traffic and hence much more enjoyable IMO to drive on. Satnav probably precludes this option - I don't need one so don't know about this.
Most people only seem to know one route to anywhere and stick to it regardless of congestion. Their loss is my gain.

Good point Rigpig, maybe this "attitude education" should be part of the formal driving test - only candidates displaying adequate maturity and pragmatic acceptance when confronted with the types of "dodgy" road behaviour that on occasion do happen should be given a license.
If a driver is excessively irritated by other drivers doing their bit, decisively, confidently, assertively, and yes EVEN somewhat aggressively, they may increase the danger in a given situation.

The road network is not some kindergarten playground, social interaction proving ground or even a good-citizen test.
It is a dynamic, risk-rich transport environment. If you can't stand the heat, stay outta the kitchen.

The lost art of using a map, Cyclist? Yep, you're right. On long journeys it can often be easier to find an alternative route. Extreme example - we went down to Devon at Easter, so I don't need to tell you what the A303 was like. We got fed up with the jams around the Stonehenge area, took a left and had the road pretty much to ourselves. Took a right further on to get us pointing in the right direction and eventually ended up on the A30. Hardly anyone else was using it. Okay, so an older road and a longer route, so in the end I doubt we saved much time. But on the plus side it turned into a really enjoyable drive on a stretch of road I'd never been on before (what my mum calls "going the pretty way"), and we didn't spend the time stressed out in traffic jams.

Still, on local journeys, say up to 15 miles, while there are often alternatives it's generally better to be able to use the ideal route and overtake if necessary. So it's still worth knowing how to do it properly.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

But this in itself can be indicative of a perception problem.

If a reasonably open-minded observer can clearly distinguish that driver A is being aggressive, yet driver B is merely being lazy or perhaps distracted, then it is clearly possible to distinguish one from the other. If another person fails to make that same distinction, and instead clumps both drivers into the "aggressive" bracket, then I see that as another lost opportunity to improve safety.

Once again it's about observation. The clues are all there, so why do people wrongly classify assertive or lazy drivers as being "aggressive"? Perhaps it is because they themselves are too lazy to make the effort and tell the difference, or perhaps it suits their agenda to wrongly make this assumption. Either way, to my mind it makes them at least as big a part of the problem as the people they are choosing to blame, sa they are missing an opportunity to better deal with the situation around them.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Anyway, message to Basingwerk!

I shan't use the "T" word, as I think you have actually raised some valid issues, but you're still a bloody time-thief!

This thread was not started to talk about aggressive / assertive driving, or the perception thereof; it was started to ask a specific question, yet here we are two pages or so later and no-one has even considered it!

To recap, the original question, before we all went off at a tangent, was whether current policy is making the roads more dangerous by encouraging more overtaking whilst at the same time reducing safe opportunities, and also what we should do about the apparently poor knowledge of how to perform a safe overtake, even amongst driving enthusiasts.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!