Safe Speed Forums

Can someone give me chapter and verse on 30mph repeaters? This from the UK Police forum:
Now, I believe that on restricted roads (in England and Wales, Scotland and NI may be different), they are actually forbidden where the streetlamps meet the criteria for the definition. They would be mandatory elsewhere. Likewise, NSL repeaters are not allowed out in the country except where steetlamps occur.

Am I right, and what are the relevant RTA references?

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Keep right on to the end of the road ...

The 1994 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d ... 04746.hcsp

Try the ABD site--http://www.abd.org.uk/ - Speed Limit Signing Requirements --etc .
As i understand it on lit 30 MPH roads in England and wales it is illegal to repeat 30 - PLEASE CORRECT ME IF WRONG.- the street lighting does that.

From the traffic signs regulations and general directions http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#sch19pII2, which supercedes previous regulations, 30 mph repeaters are prohibited on roads with street lamps located at less than 200 yards. NSL signs are not required on roads without street lamps, and are prohibited on motorways, except after a temporarily imposed limit (Due to roadworks etc.)

Does anyone know the rationale behind this rule is? I can't understand why it should be prohibited to let people know what the speed limit is.

HI CJB,

I've just had a little foray into the forum you refer to. There's a lot of misinformation on that forum which seems to be coming from 'shoot from the hip' bobbies, and would be bobbies. A lot of opinion which seems to be masquerading as fact.

It annoys me more and more as I read it, because although the URL specifies it is a recruitment forum, its the first police forum which pops up on Google and this link www.UkPoliceOnline.co.uk Forum Index mentions nothing about raw recruits chewing the cud.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Shouldn't be any need for them, 30 & NSL should be the two known default speed limits.

I would imagine the original reasons would be cost and irrelevance.
Apart from the cost its just more unsightly clutter!

Thinking it through, you are of course absolutely right. Having 30 repeaters everywhere would cost a fortune and would add even more clutter than is already there. In some situations I'd argue that they wouldn't be irrelevant though. I can think of a couple of 30mph roads which don't 'look' like they are, and people don't drive on them like they are 30s either. (Whether the 30 limit is appropriate for these places is of course another argument).

Still, having two default values seems to be one too many for some people (so they drive at a steady 40-45 no matter what the limit or conditions are).

The whole idea that we should know the speed limit based on the street lighting is totally absurd IMHO. Particularly when the local authorities mess with the limits as they see fit.

Surely if the speed limit is so important for safety then it should always be clearly and explicitly signed so there is no chance of anyone getting it wrong.

I totally agree with Griff. Why should it be prohibited to tell people what the speed limit is?

On some roads the streetlamp-implied 30mph limit is obvious (terrace streets, housing estates etc), other places it is much less obvious (inner city main roads). Unfortunately, it is the latter where all the speed limit enforcement goes on, for obvious reasons.

I remember once getting done on a 5-lane main road in Reading for doing 40mph in a "built up area with streetlamps < 200yards apart". 1 mile back up the road, there was a signed 40mph limit and the streetlamps around this sign had the same spacing and design. There were no signs to mark the transition between the 40mph and 30mph limit (although on a map, the "official" boundary of the town of Reading marks it quite clearly).

I'm sure they had a profitable day.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

200 yards is a long way, it's about 1/8th of a mile, or more than 0.1 on an odometer. It is often not possible to see this far - especially round a bend or if obscured by foliage. And not every street lamp has a repeater sign. So is it 30 or is it higher? (Or lower - 20 mph?). And is it street lighting, or amenity footway lighting? There are too many variables. Yes, 2 possible speed limits are too many, if it's not clear which one applies. If a stretch of road is considered dangerous enough to have a speed camera, then surely that's enough justification to have a repeater sign? Or would that reduce revenue too much? The law that prohibits repeater signs (rather than just not requiring it) is (in my opinion) madness.

I should note that there are a couple of exceptions to the "no repeaters" rule. These are a vehicle responsive speed limit sign and in a combination sign warning of a fixed speed camera (but not a mobile). I'm not aware of any others, although a worded advisory notice is allowed in areas where it has only just reverted to a restricted road.

Does street lighting on roundabouts count? That would spoil a lot of my fun

Oh yes. And at junctions on roads, including dual carriageways, where lighting is used to light up an area of danger. Anywhere, in fact, where street lights exist, with the sole exception of motorways.
Sooo, obviously the thing to do is to 1) look out for street lamps; 2) look to see if there are repeater signs; 3) look out for speed cameras and jam on the brakes if there are street lamps, no repeater signs within clear view and a speed camera present; 4) look out for hazards; 5) look at the speed camera video of the chap behind you who crashed into the back of you, because you suddenly braked from 60 mph to 30 mph, while you both get prosecuted for driving without due care and attention.
Maybe a bit facetious, but I can see it coming.

The presence of street lights does not automatically change the speed limit unless the road itself becomes a restricted road, in which case there should be 30 mph terminal signs. If there is a cluster of lights around a roundabout on an NSL road, the limit is still NSL even if there are no repeaters.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

You are quite right - there should. But, you can still be prosecuted if the signs are not there or are deficient - as I found to my cost.

There's this...

Road Trafic Regulation Act 1984 S85

[...]

(4) [Where no such system of street or carriageway lighting as is mentioned in section 82(1) is provided on a road,] but a limit of speed is to be observed on the road, a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2)above.

... but I don't believe that there's a counterpart for restricted roads.

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Paul Smith
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Does anybody actually measure the distance between the street lights? What if the contractors accidentally put them 200yds and 1 inch apart?

I presume that in general, they are spaced much more closely.

I think its a classic case where the speed limit signs are inadequate for the speed camera era. Most 30mph zones are pretty darn obvious, but with the wholesale reduction of speed limits there are a new breed of 30mph roads which do need repeaters on them. Often these roads feel like a 40 zone, look like a 40 zone, are no different to the 40 zone you were just in and more the likely used to be 40. Its these roads that really need the repeaters on if they insist on artificially low speed limits.

June 2005. Final RoSPA observed run.

Me "err, what's the speed limit here, is it 30 or 40? I couldn't see the signs"

Observer, "I don't know, I couldn't see the signs either"

I think that says it all really - make it up as you go along. Obviously since there are no speed limit signs, it's a 30 mph limit, and if you were caught doing 40, you'll get a speeding fine. On the other hand, it might actually still be a 40 limit, because they've just failed to put repeater signs up at that point.

Note that both RoSPA and IAM support a change in the law

Check out the following link:
http://www.rospa.co.uk/roadsafety/info/speed_policy_paper_may05.pdf
You might not like much of this paper, but there is a very interesting section on 30mph repeaters.

And also the following:
http://www.iam.org.uk/Pressroom/News_Releases/2004/nr0420.pdf