Safe Speed Forums

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but I've never seen it written, so here goes.

It's very very easy to recgnise many drunk drivers by a characteristic steering pattern. They drift and correct harshly, drift and correct harshly. The drunker they are the bigger the drift. I don't know if there's a known or clear explaination for this steering pattern, but if you're following a drunk, it can't be missed.

I assume that the drunk brain does not recognise the direction error until it has reached a certain magnitude, then comes the harsh correction.

Sometimes you can see a similar effect in braking. If the drunk is slowing for a light or a stop line frequently he will have to make a noticable adjustment in the amount of braking - sometimes almost coming to a stop 30 feet too soon for example.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It may have something to do with the fact that the first thing that intoxicants impact on is one's judgement.
This means that not only is the drunk unable to correctly judge their speed and direction, they misjudge the amount of corrective action required.
Obviously this then gets worse every time an adjustment is needed, that could help to explain the general behaviour but not neccessarily the direction!

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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

I'm sure Mad Moggie will know.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Indeed - no doubt he will get back and give you all full mind-blowing explanation of what happend to sozzled brains. Probably - he may get Wildy involved in this. Their work does overlap to certain extent!

As I said in another thread here - you get to recognise a certain type of driving pattern: overcautiousness, strict adherence to speed limit (Jolly One! Take note! - sure you keep to the rules! ) Usually find these are just at or just over limit - on average!

Alcohol does induce over confidence - and the drunk will not judge speed of oncoming traffic - hence the crunch at junctions. Sense of direction, steering and jusgement of space and distance are also impaired. They either pull up too soon - or too late.

Usually decide early on if person is potentially illegal substance - before even smelled breath!

But shall leave for the Cats to blind you with the science!

Do you recognise the "characteristic" steering I described from your professional experience?

I'd be interested to know what percentage of the drunks you follow exhibit this particular trait. My experience suggests about 100%, but then there might be drunks I haven't recognised as drunks.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Oh yes - they do just that. exactly! You have indeed described the typical!

But old geezers and drugs, and fatigued drivers do this too. Tragically - the bloke who later ploughed into Wildcat was observed doing this by pretzel in panda shortly before he joined the motorway! Unfortunately, accident occurred before they could stop him - that is how the help got to her so quickly and why she is around to claw people! Basically - dodgy steering is giveaway of any impairment.

I would follow anyone behaving so for very short distance before pulling them in - perhaps Wildy's incident made me more reactive. Would say 90% of drunks I have followed behave so. Manner is usually very aggressive as well when stopped.

Other behaviour - over caution, stopping short or overshooting junction, normal failure to observe traffic signs - red lights and one ways! And roundabouts..... oh dear! They overshoot - go around several times, choose exit, abort sharply, continue, take wrong exit, reverse and carry on - seen all of this and 90% - drunk and/or drugged!

Aggressive behaviour - even had the "come on - boy - chase me!"

Seen the lot over time!

I've recently passed part 1 theory on the ADI exams and spent time practicing the hazard awareness test on CD Rom.

Regularly got 65-70 out of 75 - tried it again after 3 pints just for amusement. I got 30 out of 75. That convinces me enough about the effects of alcohol, no matter how experienced any driver claims to be.

Proof enough that the law enforcement agencies should concentrate on drunks and reckless drivers, rather than harassing the ordinary motorist for revenue purposes...

This is exactly effect it can have on cognitive abilities and capabilities. As said on another thread here - alcohol is very rapidly absorbed through stomach wall and small intestines. Food will slow down the absorption and higher fat/protein will sponge up some of it into body's waste disposal system. Some alcohol will be excreted via urine and breath - hence the positive test down the nick!

Basically - the alcohol causes blood vessels under skin to widen, and skin is then heat sensitive. If you note - drunks always appear flushed skin toned. Dead give-away to a copper like In Gear on sight - and to me as doc taking blood tests! (But if stuck up Helvellyn or Scafell on or up on the Eiger - do not take a wee dram to warm up - as it heats up the blood vessels - body heat escapes and body cools too quickly - hypothermia sets in!). As a diuretic - it causes dehydration -- which is why I said to Peter that one drink leads to two and to four - bingo - you are illegal before you realise!

Once in blood stream - it enters brain. Once there - it hits your central nervous system. The effect depends on quantity consumed - but a small amount reduces inhibitions and tensions. This is the "relax and socialise/ gain over-confidence stage." Not good for driving a car!

More alcohol consumed - concentration is affectedmuscle co-ordination is impaired and reactions slow down. This is why the steering becomes erratic and braking is rather hit and miss!

Speech becomes slurred and you lose balance. This is about x2 legal limit - by the way!

Regular intake leads to tolerance (or need to consume larger amounts to achieve same effect.) This is on way to dependence and then full alcoholism. Significant numbers (ie serial - banned x2) drink-drive "convicts" are at tolerance/dependency stage.

However, this is why such drivers behave in way so described by Paulie and In Gear!

Thanks for posting that, however, I think there's still more about this awaiting understanding or explanation.

There's something in there about "thresholds" - the characteristic erratic steering is cyclic, and the late and harsh correction comes after some threshold has been exceeded. This is more than (or perhaps different from) the well known poor concentration / slowed reactions effects.

In some way and for some reason the drunks don't react to the drift until far later than usual.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

We all know that booze can make you squiffy, merry, giddy and plain dizzy. This is effect booze has on both cognitive and motor skills (ie the neurons and nerves which carry the impulses which cause muscles to contract and induce movement.) The affect of the excess booze in the brain affects the central nervous system which is the control box for the human machine's motor skills - to keep things simplistic speak!

Vision can also be impaired by the over-consumption as well. Also brain's ability to perceive danger is reduced. However, the drunk - maybe a self-preservation instinct kicks in, awakes the cognitive perception briefly and you see "just - in - time" reaction - hence the last minute and harsh corrective action. Maybe even the cognitive brain has seen the danger in reasonable time, but the affect of the alcohol on the neurons slows the reaction movement. Trouble is the drunk thinks they reacted in normal time

We still have not uncovered every single aspect of the human machine - always something new to discover! Effects of booze on brain is still being researched! Research never really stops - ever! That is what I find so fascinating about my job and profession!

Personally - none of the Wacky, Wild Mad Moggie Cat family take one drink if they intend to drive a car - as one can lead to more........

However, not all doom and gloom. Taken in moderation - a drinky can reduce chances of fatal heart attack/clots (mostly decent red wine - but even a very wee dram can raise levels of high density lipoproteins which protect arteries).

But - don't do this and drive And read the labels on any medications you take - booze and drugs -- they do not mix!!

Yes, that sounds close. Especially the last sentence. The drunk can't correct the behaviour because it isn't noticed in the first place.



I used to be happy to drink a half of lager with a meal when driving. But very many years ago now I realised that I was able to notice the effect of that single glass on my driving so I gave that up too. The only right amount of alcohol for driving is zero. However I'm not at all sure that blood alcohol concentration (BAC) measures "the right zero". There might be morning after situations where one is genuinely stone cold sober without BAC being zero. And there are also certainly heavy drinkers with high tolerance to alcohol who are stone cold sober with significant numerical BAC.

I wish we measured impairment instead.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Do you perhaps know to what extent these effects are present during the elimination phase, ie when the blood alcohol level is falling?
It's apparently recognised that someone is less out of commission when alcohol levels are falling than when they're rising - there's even a name for this, although it escapes me.

I wish they would do more research into this aspect.
Don't get me wrong, I was almost killed in a head-on with a drunk driver about 25 years ago, so I don't believe one should drink at all before driving. Mind you, he was very drunk, not just over the limit.
But, many people are getting banned for being over the limit the morning after, when they have no idea that they have any alcohol left in them, and they may in fact be perfectly safe to drive.

Regards
Peter

Is that what American plods do with all that walking along white lines, touching your nose with your eyes closed stuff? Any idea if it works?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

It's called the Mellanby Effect.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

PeterE is quite right this is the Mellanby Effect or return to sobriety. Large percentage of excess alcohol has been excreted, but some is still present in the body. They may still have over 80mg in blood - and if we reduced tolerance to 50mg - perhaps lot more would be caught out In this state - you would still have increased self-confidence, decreased inhibitions and perhaps judgement may still be ropey.

These usually pose most of the morning-after convictions. Basically people have done the correct thing - gone to pub, taken taxi home, gone to bed. What they do not realise is that body does shut down at beddy-bo times. Normal adults in prime of life do not pee in sleep - alcohol is not excreted and metabolism has gone to sleep along with the rest of you! So your 4-5 pints of lager, packet of crisps and the wee dram up to 11.00-11.30pm (normalish night down the pub) will keep you above limit until at least 8.45 am following morning - and even lunchtime if yoou did all this on empty stomach, or mixed your wee dram with Canada Dry (OH PLEASE - NO-OH!) or drank (uuuurgh!) alcopops or mixed your white wine with carbonated water. (Still water mix does not permeate stomach wall as if it were sieve - fizzy drinks do just that - and total alcohol goes with them and you get bladdered quicker - and it does stay in your blood longer if you do this ) Trouble is - too many are unaware of this - and this should tested within the Theory Test .

Person of average weight and lard metabolises and excretes one unit (10mg) alcohol per hour, starting ca one hour after consuming first drinky. Assuming food intake is normal, metabolic rate is normal and person does drink moderately, has no enhanced tolerance or dependency (in which case - this person could be permanently over limit!)

Metabolism depends alcohol strength of the drink consumed and on person's weight as well - we find girlies who are no starvation diets, take their wine with perrier - end up victims of morning after more than normal 9-10stone woman. However, some think that they can drink more if tubs of lard - and that can lead to trouble as well!

Metabolisms are individual as well - we are all different. All the guidelines are just that - rough guidlines for people to follow of rule of thumb. You are better off just not drinking anything if you intend to drive! Even the measures given in the pub can vary!

And did you know that your hair retains alcohol levels. Not been approved yet - but we can tell from your hair and nail cuttings whether or not you are seasoned boozer, and even - assuming they catch a hit and run - whether they were drunk when they did deed - based on hair strands. Booze in particular gets into hair follicles on bonce! (and we have developed tests for balding old geezers (nails contain some deposits too!) - so no shaving heads and buying rugs! )

Also - sobering thought - metabolisms change as we grow older as well! Old farties like us - Paulie in 40s! (Downhill from 40! - Wildcat - hahahahahaha! - 40 in couple of weeks! hahahahahaha!) - cannot hold our liquor like we used to !

I would imagine a large majority of "technical" drink-driving offences in fact occur on the "morning after" rather than immediately after drinking, often by people who genuinely believe that they do not drink and drive.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Mad Lad! Shall be surprised if she has not clawed you to pieces for that

This is sadly very true!

Mad Doc appears to have assumed people are au fait with so-called "rule of thumb" limits.

Surprised the Mad Doc did not remind everyone (on assumption - the browsers on the site need information) that men should not really consume more than 4 units, and women 3 units immediately before driving as rule of thumb,

Also prior to 11.30 pm - no more than 10 units for men and 7 units for women. Assuming you will not be driving before 8am next day.

You should bear in mind that this is based on avergae metabolism for average weighted men and women.

You can reckon that two pints or ordinary strength beer gives average man BAC 0f 80mg/100ml blood. It is by no means concrete as we are all different as he points out. And if you commit a driving offence with 50mg-70mg - we do regard that as factor in the offence. As the those Mags (especially if you are of sort "who should know better" as majority of well educated middle classes are judged to be! )

As for our powers -

I can stop you for any driving offence - even a blown bulb! And if I suspect any illegal substance - I would test for it! Of course, there is some degree of discretion - perhaps I have let an illegal "slip" for slight overblip of 5mph on speed limit for example - but nothing else in the driving style has alerted me to problem.

I would routinely breathalyse those involved in a crunch/collision, and any erratic driving or unsteady walk on approach to driver's door - I would pull for this. I have tested people on pub car parks before now! (public have access to these - so neither exceeding nor abusing power here!)

We still have the odd block at Xmas and are planning to do so in our patch over Euro footy season. We usually ask if you have been drinking and if Sir /Madam would not mind ..... At this point and in this circumstance - you are entitled to refuse us - but it is not advisable! Most comply - ah! the blue serge ....! the power....

If your test reads green - no problem. Amber means you had drinky but you are legal -- and red - would mean we arrest on suspicion, and then get more tests done at the nick. We use an Intoximeter (very accurate and calibrated equipment) - two breaths and we use lower of the two readings in court. We would also offer blood and urine test as well - and I would advise anyone in this predicament to take it - if you think BAC level could be falling and you can use this as defence. Also you can have your own chap to double check our police lab's findings. Also it helps us - if we do not offer it - clever lawyer can use it to mitigate you! And we cannot have that - can we! Also we prosecute at 81mg/100ml if all other tests show high readings.

We also provide you with bed and breakfast if you are over the limit. You get your money's worth from us!