Safe Speed Forums

Hi all. I am new here and came to this board while browsing the net for information on motoring law. I lost my 12 year old daughter in March 2003 as a result of a car accident which was caused by a speeding and very dangerous driver. You can read about what happened to her here

http://www.gopetition.co.uk/online/4549.html

please sign my petition and help me get the law changed to stop people from getting away with murder behind the wheel.

I have every sympathy for your situation and there are many unfortunate and avoidable incidents on the roads.

But murder is universally defined as killing with premeditation. In even the most serious road accidents there is no intent to kill, even if there is gross recklessness.

The law allows penalties of up to 14 years' imprisonment for causing death by dangerous driving, and life imprisonment for manslaughter.

If the circumstances justify it, there is no legal impediment to passing severe and salutary sentences.

But, on the other hand, it is possible for someone to be involved in a fatal accident where little or no blame attaches to them. Surely it would not be reasonable to imprison people under such circumstances.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I agree that every case is different and as such should be treated that way. However what I am talking about is that it is possible to kill someone behind the wheel and be charged with careless driving which doesn't take into account the fact that a person/s has died as a result. This means that as more often than not charges of causing death by dangerous driving are lowered to the charge of careless driving( by the CPS just to secure a safe conviction) they are not being penalised for the death of that person and only for the offence they have committed.
At the end of the day a car is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands and that is something we should as responsible adults be aware of when we get behind the wheel of a car. I do not think it is fair to penalise a driver when they are not at fault because someone has died but I do feel that where an offence has been committed then why should the law protect the offender and ignore the victims and their families.

Welcome. I'm very sorry indeed to hear about your loss.

At Safe Speed we do our very very best to identify the factors that might be influenced to improve road safety and to make such tragedies less common in the future.

I have very strong doubts that an increase in criminal prosecution or Police effort could have prevented the accident. After all it is extremely unlikely that the Blue Peugeot driver thought: "I'll drive like an arse and kill someone, because I have a good chance of getting away with it."

In general the nutters on our roads don't expect to have accidents - they are at least overconfident and at most plain reckless. It follows if they don't expect to have accidents, then any possible punishment after the accident won't have much of an influence either.

But there are things that can make a difference. More Police traffic patrols to catch bad drivers before they crash is one of the most important. In the speed camera era Police traffic patrols have been cut by 80%+ in some areas. Some forces have disbanded their traffic division completely.

In the accident described, three drivers were involved. Early and appropriate reactions by either of the two innocent drivers could possibly have reduced the effects from tragedy to incident. I appreciate that it's easily said after the event, but we don't train our drivers to a very high standard and we don't do much to help them to improve after their driving test. Better driver education across the board could save many accidents - including those precipitated by nutters.

It appears important and significant to you that the causing Peugeot was "speeding". From the description I assume that his speed was inappropriate for the conditions. This is fundamentally a safety violation and is distinct and separate from exceeding the speed limit, which is a technical violation. I believe it is important to the cause of road safety to strongly distinguish between the two behaviours.

If you can post a fuller description of the crash we could look at the precise factors that might have been able to have made a difference.

As your petition stands I don't believe it can do much to save anyone elses' daughter from such a tragedy. I understand that you feel a need for retribution and that's completely understandable. But perhaps combining your grief and tragic experience with our knowledge we could come up with something better?

I'd be very happy to help in any way I can.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi,

If someone drives a car and is knowingly endangering the lives of others by drinking or reckless driving and they kill somone then the punishment should be the same as what would happen to a pre-meditated murderer on foot.

Andrew

Because of the fact that there is still an ongoing investigation I have to be careful of what I do say. In the case of my daughters accident the as yet untraced peugeot had been witnessed driving erratically and dangerously at various points enroute to where my daughter was killed. It was seen overtaking and undertaking at high speed and forcing other traffic to swerve or brake heavily in several different places. This was at least 3 miles from before the crash scene. In the case of the driver of the vehicle in which my daughter was a passenger there is an ongoing investigation into whether he had any blame as it is thought that despite the decreasing distance between him and the vehicles in front (of which there were 4 all braking heavilly)he should have been able to brake safely and come to a stop without jack-knifing into the oncoming lane of traffic. The vehicle into which he crashed could not avoid a collision as he was travelling along normally in the same direction as the peugeot (which had already overtaken his car) at 55mph in a 60mph speed limit.there was no time for him to react. the road conditions were good and visibility should have been good as it was a straight road and it was sunny. It was the middle of the day. The road is an A road and is a notoriously busy road which was built around 6 years ago. There have been some 12 people killed there at least since then.The peugeot was doing speeds in excess of 80mph and some witnesses put his speed at being over 100mph. I hope that the driver of the peugeot didnt deliberately go out with the intent to kill someone but the fact that he then stopped some 100 yards up the road from the crash scene suggests that he was fully aware of what he had done and the fact that he hasnt come forward suggests he does not have any remorse for what he has done. There were no cameras working that day and the chances of finding this driver are probably very small. I agree that speed cameras are probably not likely to have prevented this accident but i feel that if the cameras had been working that day then we would not be wondering if he would ever have been caught.

"quote"
As your petition stands I don't believe it can do much to save anyone elses' daughter from such a tragedy

the point of this petition is not to try to save anyone elses life but to provide some form of legal justice to the victims and their families. If the victims are heard properly by the legal system then there would be far less acts of violence shown as revenge which sadly is the case of todays society.
"QUOTE"
More Police traffic patrols to catch bad drivers before they crash is one of the most important. In the speed camera era Police traffic patrols have been cut by 80%+ in some areas.

I agree that more police patrols would help but sadly there could never be enough to prevent every accident.Where I live speed cameras are a rarity. The nearest cameras to where my daughter was killed are cctv cameras and not speed cameras.

It seems that the laws are in place but the CPS and judicial system are not using them as intended

An example is a few weeks back somebody driving an uninsured unregistered car and killed somebody was fined £80. A short time later in the same court somebody who lost control and hit a tree causing slight injuries to a passenger (and was road-legal) was fined £400.

Out of interest why were the CCTV cameras not working? They would have been FAR more useful than having speed cameras because they might have shown the driver's face and possibly the junction they left at. There is also the strong possibility that the car wasn't even regsistered to the driver, so a speed camera photo might not have been any use.

I agree about the lack of manpower - if it was a murder investigation they would have been around to every petrol station nearby to get their CCTV and local town centre CCTV control rooms to see if they had anything.

Gareth

Firstly, I'd like to offer my deepest condolences at your loss. As the father of a 10-y-o and 8-y-o I pray it never happens to me. One part of your account above interests me:

This suggests highly suspicious behaviour in the first place. Was the car stolen? Were the occupants under the influence of drink or drugs? Was it being used as a getaway vehicle from another crime? In any of these circumstances Pc Gatso would have been useless, whereas patrols might have pulled him/them in. (Even CCTV cameras can't uproot themselves and give chase, though they're better at providing backing evidence).

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Keep right on to the end of the road ...

Hi mahali

My sincerest condolences. I do understand how you feel. I see it each time I have to knock on someone's door and deliver heartbreak.

When we bring these people to so-called justice - it happens again - lesser charge to secure at least a conviction.

Because mahali - we have to prove beyond reasonable doubt - and with dangerous driving - it has to be fixed in deepest concrete - objectively - without emotion.

That is nub of your problem - of all victims' problems. Law is black and white - emotion does not figure at all. That is the harsh reality. And I know only too well that is very hard and very callous for the victims in all this - you and me. Law is an ass! (And politically correct magistrates who misinterpret the laws, misinterpret the sentencing structure, value trees, and dregs of society, more than lives and are a liablity to justice as well!)

There is also the niggling factor to me personally: our paperwork is on trial as well. This is why the investigation will be painstaking.

As I read the data given - would agree that the Pug driver was the culprit as his driving, backed up by witnesses - caused the collision to occur, and the driver of the actual vehicle in which your daughter was so tragically killed is being investigated to rule out any culpability on his part. Would also view the Pug's driver's behaviour as highly suspicious as CJB has pointed out. Could have been joyrider (in parent's car if not reported stolen) - speed cam could have been useful in this case -, in a ringer perhaps. But even if this dreg of humanity is caught - more than likely to be charged with the lesser charge to secure conviction - especially with variations of speed estimations from the witnesses. I am really sorry - it has to be black and white for dangerous driving to actually stick.

I know mate - not what you want to hear - I am really sorry - and I fear I am rubbing salt into a unbearably painful wound here.

I am sure the officers in charge of the investigation will do their best to try to bring charges of more serious offence - and fact that he has not come forward as yet will count very much against him as well.

I would willingly sign a petition to try to force judges and magistrates to actually sentence " the found guilty "according to the guidelines and regulations laid down by statute and the law of the land!

Hi mahali!

I add my sincere condolences to you! Like In Gear - I can understand the feeling of loss and bewilderment following an RTA.

Cousin of ours died after an artic. slammed into him.

Siz months or so later -my wife was luckier! Much! My wife survived - but that feeling when the police and a colleague came to inform me what had happened .... you really cannot describe it! So - I do understand how you feel. My wife was victim of someone who had fatal behind the wheel ... Immediately afterwards - we wanted compulsory medicals for all drivers on 1-12 monthly basis. Then realised - as doctor - that this was unrealistic and - that this was anger based and not a logic based reaction.

Given the tragic sequence of events - doubtful that speed camera would have helped. Indeed - there is something highly suspicious about the maniac who caused the accident to occur. And the trouble is - speculation on this will only serve to cause you more heartache. We can only hope and pray with you that this person will be caught and face fullest consequences of his actions.



I would second that!

thanks for all of your signatures and your comments. I would like to get the petition onto paper too. If any of you would be willing to help by placing a copy of the petition at your local shops please leave a pm for me here with your email address and I will get back to you.
thanks again