Safe Speed Forums

The current thread about safe cycling in the General forum has got me thinking a bit more about overtaking cyclists. I know how I do it and what my thinking is behind my actions, but as a keen non-cyclist I'm not really in a position to know how it's perceived by the cyclists I pass. I'm reasonably confident that I'm safe enough that it normally passes without comment, but for all I know every cyclist I pass is thinking 'inconsiderate twat'. Did I pass too close or ridiculously and unnecessarily far away? Did the slipstream from my car give them something to worry about? If so should I have gone a bit slower or a bit wider or both? As I said, I think I'm doing okay but if I'm brutally honest the only objective measure I've got is that I ever get V signs from a cyclist or see one lying in the gutter in my rear view mirror.

So in the spirit of Safe Speed's comments about breaking down the 'them and us' mentality some cyclists and drivers have towards each other (well, chipping away at it a bit at least) I'd like to ask the cyclists round here a question:

How would you guys like drivers to overtake you (and don't say 'rarely' )?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

damn, there goes my one and only joke.

First of all I'd prefer it if motorists would look ahead and NOT overtake if they're just going to stop at a queue a few meters up the road.

Now I'll presume that nobody on here would do such a thing as it involves a lack of observation. So given that you're overtaking then I like it when I'm given at least a metre of space. If the road permits then pretend you're overtaking a car and cross to the other side.
Surprisingly the people that give me the most space are arctics, followed closely by drivers who are quite clearly travelling above the speed limit.

As a Driver I treat overtaking a cyclist the same way as overtaking any other slower moving vehicle on the road (horse, tractor moped ......) and give a wide berth accordingly , regardless of width . ( You'd treat a horse with this respect so why not a cyclist !)

As a cyclist I like to be overtaking in the same manner as I overtake, I would rather there were cycling lanes everywhere but realise thats far from feasible.

Treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself!!!!!!

Act like an inconsiderate twat and .... well , you'll probably deserve that smack in the mouth.

I don't cycle, but I will always give much more than a metre of space, and certainly don't overtake if there is a queue ahead - what's the point?

I have seen many instances of drivers not doing these basic things, and I attribute it to them not thinking about the consequences of their actions properly or having consideration for other road users. Back to education and COAST really.

This is something that the Think! campaign should be funding adverts for rather than the totally unbelievable cut your speed rubbish.

On the other side of the coin, many cyclists could also do with education - the local enthusiast groups often think that they are the peloton from the tour and will ride as a bunch 5 or 6 wide occupying the whole road, and this is clearly against the highway code:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/03.htm

As is the equally common use of the pavements as cycle paths, riding without lights and other misdemeanors. We could do with a set of adverts aimed at cyclists too that would highlight common dangerous behaviours on their part. You never know, by just raising the profile of cycling it might become more popular!

What is really required is a commitment to providing proper facilities such as segregated cycle lanes (as seen in Holland) rather than the half baked token efforts we see locally that are done as cheap as possible. The cycle path into Stourbridge shares half of a fairly narrow pavement - 1m max for a two-way cycle lane, and includes blind 90 degree turns - as a cycle path it is impossible to use without serious danger of collision with pedestrians or other cyclists. For some reason even those that always ride on the pavement appear to avoid it!

this is one thing that we don't want, mainly as it encourages the view that cyclists shouldn't be on the road but it also brings 'unseen' cyclists into conflict with cars at junctions.

What would really help in this country is slightly wider roads.


if you think about it, this actually makes a given group easier to overtake (if you're giving them space) than if the same group were strung out 2 abreast over a much greater distance.

I picture them lying down having fallen off to the right, and make room for that in all but the very slowest urban situations.

What we need is a TV ad showing a cyclist fallen over as a 'space guide'. If we can just get drivers to picture them fallen off, the bulk of the issue is sorted.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Paul, this is exactly the point I was making in the other thread when I said you should ALWAYS presume that they're about to fall off.

Well, it is and it isn't. Allowing for room for them to fall off and having a pictorial nemonic for it are closely related, but not the same.

If I was making the video, I'd try things like having the fallen cyclist in the road showing as a flashing red outline. Anything to make an image that burns into memory...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Just to show that not all clubs are bad, here's the Addiscombe rules:



and they're not just for show, people have been banned for bad riding.
Also 'communicating up & down the grp' amongst other things means yelling out if there's cars being held up behind and, if necessary, moving to single file.

I carefully didn't say in the OP, but normally I aim to pass with a gap of about 6 foot or so. Obviously that varies quite a bit depending on the situation. At an extreme I might like to leave closer to 10 foot if it's a dual carriageway. I'd plan to treat it much like overtaking a car in L1 and look for an appropriately sized gap coming up in L2 - the only real difference is that I might be overtaking very quickly (in terms of time spent alongside the cyclist rather than mph) so it may not be necessary to go all the way into L2 and back, so I may still have the n/s wheels in L1. Depends on the situation, but generally on a d-c I'd like to leave enough room that if he fell off at speed and rolled to the right I'd still be able to avoid him. I'm also thinking of the slipstream created by passing cars, though I've no idea how bad this is for cyclists and might be erring on the side of over caution there. At the other end of the scale, the rush hour crawl, I let the cyclists set the gap as they're more likly to be passing me than me overtaking them . Being serious, where possible I leave enough room for a cyclist to pass up the inside and trust them to be sensible about it. Most do exactly that.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

It doesn't make them any easier to overtake on the narrow country roads that I am thinking of - no white lines in the middle, and they are not giving overtaking drivers any space at all; certainly not enough for a minimum 1m clearance.

I do appreciate that two abreast would occupy a much longer length of road, but the situation then becomes similar to the tailgating convoy situation where vehicles are going slower than the conditions allow, but are not leaving any spaces into which overtaking vehicles can pull. OK, I know that they are cycling as a social activity, and want to chat with their mates, but riding in smaller clumps of maximum 6 riders with 4 or more vehicle lengths between them would at least allow other traffic to use the road too.

I am slightly puzzled by your disagreement with segregated cycle lanes - I was thinking about the proper investment that Holland has made, rather than the typical UK c**k up - most UK cycle lane efforts are a complete waste of paint. See the link below for some information:

http://holland.cyclingaroundtheworld.nl/GettingAround-RoadsTraffic.html

The implication of the Dutch site however is that the use of cycle lanes actually encourages worse behaviour by the cyclists - in particular the ignoring of red lights. The conflict points where roads and cycle routes cross is something that can be addressed by engineering with bridges or pelican style lights.

I always give cyclists a wide berth when I pass, and if there's no space to do so I wait until there is.
Havin said that, one of the things that irritates me about (some) cyclists is that they pass you when you're in a queue at the lights, when it's quite clear that they're subsequently going to hold you up for a long time - because road conditions ahead do not give you sufficient room to pass them again.
OK, perhaps this is more down to bad road design, but I don't think it's too much to ask that I'm afforded the same degree of courtesy as I give.

Cheers
Peter

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

no, in that case they certainly shouldn't be doing it. I was thinking more of roads with marked lanes. (btw I'm not saying they should be riding 5 or 6 abreast, just theorising)


I'll see if I can dig something up later but there's research out there that shows segregated lanes lead to higher accident rates.

in terms of what feels comfortable and uncomfortable as a cyclist being overtaken i think the more clearance between you and the cyclist the faster a relative speed you can overtake at.

to an extent if you overtake i'd rather you did it as quickly as possible and minimise the time of any potential conflict, but if the maximum gap isnt available flying past at 60mph is frankly scary!

certainly i don't like car encroaching within a foot (wing mirror -> elbow).
1 foot to a yard make a controlled and definite pass, max relative speed 10mph
1-2yards 20mph
3yards 30mph+

i.e.
BIKE -- 1yd -->| 10mph -- 2yd -->| 20mph -- 3yd -->| 30mph

don't know really if the speeds & gaps are right, its just something that occured to me whilst riding. maybe its not ideal but then the ideal huge gap rarely is and i don't expect car drivers to wait for it, but then if i don't want to be overtaken i'll make it clear with a hand gesture and road position.

As someone who cycles 90 miles a week I guess i could come within the cyclist category.

Generally most car drivers give plenty of room when overtaking, in fact I would say that the younger drivers even more so believe it or not. Obviously you will feel a vehicle that has come too close and I have actually seen on a number of occasions the car that, was behind it, speedup to vent their disgust at the other driver.

Riding at night with a flashing led is by far the safest, 99% of drivers will give plenty of room. By room I would say half 6ft clearance on most occasions.

The idiots in general are buses and taxi drivers who couldn't care less alot of the time and the greatest danger is at junctions where drivers cut in too early when they turn right into the junction.

The only nearmiss I had was when a Police 'panda' car driver nearly took me out on a straight, clear length of NSL road, no blue lights. I was forced into the side of he road he overtook so close. If I had seen him I would have punched the idiot at the time, Police Officer or not. Obviously I'm not indicated in any way that all Police drivers are like that because they are not.

That said, Cyclist faults are many:

Going through red lights
No lights
listening to a walkman
No hand signals
Weaving out for drain covers etc
cyclists whom ride side-by-side
Cyclists whom try and cut in as an HGV swings out to turn left for example.
Cyclists whom don't show the courtesy of a wave when the car behind has been patiently waiting to safely overtake.

Flashing led=illegal and sometimes invisible. (Unless also used with non-flashing legal light!)

And you missed riding on pavements.

Flashing led= Drivers give wider birth

non flashing led= Drivers appear not to give wider birth


For clarification purposes you are right and i ride with both, although the law is to be changed and they will be permitted.

Interestingly enough, i've never known the Police to be bothered by them, better to be seen than not at all etc. I guess with many laws, i blind eye can be turned if the ultimate aim is safety.

PS, how do you work out that a flashing led becomes invisible?

halogen lights are also illegal but I'll stick with my 70w halogens over a 2w 'legal' light any day (well they're really metal halide) and the reason they're illegal is apparently because the battery doesn't last for long enough. 3 hours is plenty for me, and I carry a reserve just in case.


do you suggest that cyclists don't do this or that they just ride out in the first place?


not as bad as talking on a moblie


this is perfectly legal


if you're saying you've seen people ride up the inside of a turning truck then I don't think they'll be around for long


problem is that if someone's waiting patiently to overtake you won't always hear them over other traffic noise as they're too far behind (and I'm certainly not going to give a wave to someone who's been waiting 'patiently' a few inches from my rear wheel). You don't get it too much here but it is really evident riding in France where people do respect cyclists.
In fact in several weeks of riding in France I've only had one person endanger my life and surprise, surprise it was a <GB> plate.


ok, so there are some people who don't give any signals but you may also think that others who do signal don't, if you see what I mean, as it's quite difficult to signal as much as necessary when you have to brake at the same time.

Reaction from an Englishman who has spent many years driving and cycling in the Netherlands:
- as far as the road engineering point is concerned, I believe that you are correct. The infrastructure here is VERY bike-friendy, loads of cycle lanes that are normally well separated from the road, loads of separate lights at junctions just for cyclists (downside here is more phases to wait for - longer delays at lights for all road users) , generally well signposted bike routes etc. etc.
- as far as law-breaking is concerned, also true to a certain ectent, but not as big a problem as some would imagine, due to a generally much more bike-friendly mentality by all road users. Like it or not, if there is an accident involving a bike and a motor vehicle, the vehicle driver is assumed to be (more) guilty than the cyclist except in the most exceptional of circumstances. So vehicles generally treat bikes with a lot of respect.

However, practically speaking, it's not as "bad" as it sounds because:
1. the infrastructure means that most of the times the cyclists are separated from the other road users
2. absolutely everyone here cycles from an early age, and have "verkeer" (road-traffic) lessons at school from about age 6, so the quality of cycling is very high.

You may be amused by the following story.
When I first came to the Netherlands I had to stop at a red traffic light at a busy crossroads. In front of me were also a few bikes, also waiting at the lights to turn left (don't forget they all drive on the "wrong" side of the road here!). What really confused me was that there were also several adults and kids just standing in the middle of the road in front of me too. WIERD, I thought.
Then the lights went green, the cyclists started moving, and the adults and kids each jumped on the back of a bike. And off they went on their merry way. Not something you see much in the UK. In fact some Dutch people I know got a b*llocking off a policeman when they were cycling in Knightsbridge for doing the same thing (2 adults on a bike).

Different cultures!

and bizarrely, no light and drivers give even wider berth...

riding home one night I couldn't figure out why everyone was giving me so much room. Then I got home and found that my light had died somewhere along my 30 minute ride. Maybe it's because I'm wearing all sorts of reflective bits so without the flashing light to identify me as a cyclist all the drivers presumed I was some sort of emergency worker or something and gave me more room.