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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:01 
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stevei wrote:
gopher wrote:
Thing is Steve what happens when someone does not follow the internal coding standards?

We have a team of 6 developers, we have internal coding standards, and we expect developers to follow those standards.

To apply this, as you have, to speeding as an example, if I conduct a code review at the end of a project and find a developer has not followed the standards more than 3 times we would have to sack him. It doesn’t mean he is not good at the job, does not mean he can’t write good, efficient, easy to read, maintainable code, but the rules are the rules, so his p45’s on the way.

It doesn’t happen does it? No, we use discretion because that is the sensible thing to do. Certainly if the developer writes bad code or code that does not perform the function required, time after time, then perhaps letting them go is the best thing, but to me you seem to be advocating that an automated code analyser (Scamera\speed limiter) decides whether a developer keeps their job over a senior developer\project manager(Traf Pol) say so.

As a senior developer performing code reviews I know what I prefer, I would rather good coders than a code monkeys than just follow standards, that would be dangerous.

Cheers

Paul

If someone doesn't follow the standards, then no matter how good their code would be in isolation, it's going to present readability problems for other people in the team in the context of a code base that is all written to a different standard. The difference in conventions could even cause other people to introduce bugs by misunderstanding the intent of their code. If someone was intentionally repeatedly refusing to abide by the standards because they didn't like them and there seemed to be no prospect of them changing their behaviour, then yes, they would have disciplinary proceedings started against them and would eventually be sacked. The same would be true if they repeatedly showed themselves unable to write code that meets requirements, I want people who can do both, not one or the other. It's worth noting that such extreme uncooperativeness is exceptionally rare in my experience, most people want to do a good job and accept that writing code in the same way as everyone else is a necessary part of that, indeed they actively want the code they have to work with to all be written in the same way.


But this ist how we organise our systems in work place - but we adapt if change dictate necessity.

UK has law system which evolves and adapt though legal precedent and according as need arises - which is bit like firms and their systems in way.

Swiss have written constiitution und each Kanoton votes to change... they all voted to retain conscription.

Germany und Austria... revolt in ranks and they introduced alternative because of the "rebels" - they now have community service as alternative. Cannot recall if Germany still send to prison if refusal - but ist three year stretch in Swiss Alps still. Yhey get two years in army and each male ist legally required to do this - and legally required to keep gun in house too. :yikes: :bunker: (By way - no one knows who ist really after our cuckoo clock und chocolates... :wink: )

But toppest scientist are natural born rebels :lol: - we ask nasty questions....und seek nasty answer too... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:03 
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lauren o'dare wrote:
So, are the laws against running people down and killing them with a bicycle obsolete then?

Despite cyclists killing comparable numbers of pedestrians per passenger mile as drivers?

Are you saying that there are cyclists who have killed pedestrians but not been prosecuted, indeed that many cyclists have killed pedestrians, but none have ever been prosecuted? Yes, we would have to conclude the law should be removed if they have no intention of enforcing it.

lauren o'dare wrote:
I fail to see the relevance to a discussion about speed limits there.

Trying to keep it a general discussion about abiding by the law rather than getting bogged down in specifics. If I understand it, you are saying that you categorise laws as those where harm arises from breaking them, and those where no harm arises. You are happy for each person to decide whether their illegal activity causes harm or not. You believe that someone murdering you causes harm, but speeding does not. The problem is that this is just your view, there is no absolute view of harm, and someone else may think that speeding causes harm, but murdering you does not.

lauren o'dare wrote:
That makes as much sense as:

If it weren't for "all you" human beings murdering everyone there would be no need to shackle every single one of you to your beds.

What a bizarre extrapolation. Surely you can see that in general, laws are only created to address perceived problems, and that if people didn't exhibit the problem behaviour the law wouldn't be created? If nobody had ever been perceived to be driving "too fast" we would probably not have speed limits.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:16 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
stevei wrote:
I would greatly prefer it if people didn't cause the perceived problems in the first place, so there would be no need for legislation to address them.

The fundamental purpose of the law is to enforce social norms. But exceeding the speed limit is a social norm... Something wrong here...

Yes, so to generalise the problem, we have a law that many people break, but many people are also convicted of breaking, i.e. the government is making it very clear indeed they don't want people to break it. And whilst many people break it, we can't take this as a vote that they are against the law, because the very fact that it is ignored so much makes it very hard to adhere to, due to the problem of building up a huge queue of angry drivers behind you if you try to adhere to the limit. It's a bit like the way in which surveys have shown that a majority of drivers are in favour of imposed curbs on car use, but are not prepared to unilaterally reduce their own car use, because that would put them at a disadvantage. So you can't infer from mass breaking of a law that all those people wouldn't prefer it if there weren't such mass breaking of the law, they may just feel pressured into "following the crowd".

We have a very restrictive subset of the population on this forum, and the range of views expressed is generally very narrow. I know many people who wouldn't come anywhere near this forum, who do see speeding as a huge problem, they don't want to drive any faster than the limit, but also don't want people right up behind them frantically trying to get past them at the first opportunity, no matter how inappropriate and unsafe that manoeuvre might be.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:19 
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Try this site - the idea is floated as a guide to hazards - seems at that time to have been the norm

http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/speedlimits.html

There's also more on various other limits


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:20 
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lauren o'dare wrote:
stevei wrote:
Speed limiters are something that I see as solving an awful lot of problems

Such as?

HGV driver deaths rose when they introduced them on lorries.

That's in the context of vehicles going faster than their limited speed. I agree that is a nightmare scenario. Much like the nightmare scenario we have at the moment where some drivers want to adhere to the speed limits, but other drivers feel no compunction to do so. The main problem I see limiters solving is that of a car driving along at the speed limit, and car after car driving up to join the queue of infuriated motorists behind them, annoyed that they are being prevented from driving at 50% above the speed limit.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:26 
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WildCat, I don't think I disagree with a single thing you said, and I do like your endearing use of und, ist and nicht, though I noticed one occasion where you did use "Is" by mistake :D


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:51 
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stevei wrote:
I know many people who wouldn't come anywhere near this forum, who do see speeding as a huge problem, they don't want to drive any faster than the limit, but also don't want people right up behind them frantically trying to get past them at the first opportunity, no matter how inappropriate and unsafe that manoeuvre might be.

I have to say this does not tally with my own experience. I have done the IAM course which requires pretty close adherence to limits, and never found myself in that position of being aggressively tailgated. I also tend to drive within the limit or only marginally above on most urban 30s, and only very occasionally find anyone taking exception to this.

Today, I have been driven over 200 miles by a friend who is a senior observer with my local IAM group, on a variety of roads. This chap broadly adheres to all speed limits, although he certainly doesn't do so in any kind of anal manner. On no occasion did we experience this "frantically trying to get past", the only thing that came remotely close being a girl in a small car on the motorway who seemed to have trouble with the concept of moving into Lane 2 to overtake.

The fact that people say they suffer this may say more about their own style of driving than the fact they are adhering to limits - I would say it only generally occurs on a limited subset of roads with heavy traffic levels and blatantly daft limits.

Also I would like to bet that these people who say "I don't want to speed" still routinely do so in free-flowing conditions when they are not being tailgated.

Speed limits simply do not represent a black-and-white situation in terms of safety or responsiblity (and never can wherever they are set) and therefore have to be enforced with recognition that they are by nature "woolly" - even though this is hard to accept philosophically for some people who want to have everything cut and dried.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:53 
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ASs I type this - listen to Last Night of Proms und they sing "RULE BRITANNIA!" - Ist a song which we should always have in minds all the time. :wink: "BRITONS NEVER NEVER NEVER SHALL BE SLAVES!!"

Mad Doc ist singing along! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

stevei wrote:
lauren o'dare wrote:
So, are the laws against running people down and killing them with a bicycle obsolete then?

Despite cyclists killing comparable numbers of pedestrians per passenger mile as drivers?

Are you saying that there are cyclists who have killed pedestrians but not been prosecuted, indeed that many cyclists have killed pedestrians, but none have ever been prosecuted? Yes, we would have to conclude the law should be removed if they have no intention of enforcing it.


IG mentioned this law a few time - 1861 "Offence Against Person Act" - has been known --was case in Germany years ago - where someone was badly injured. Und lieber gone on PH site (ist a BiB) cited a case he dealt with...und one he heard of too....

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lauren o'dare wrote:
I fail to see the relevance to a discussion about speed limits there.

Trying to keep it a general discussion about abiding by the law rather than getting bogged down in specifics. If I understand it, you are saying that you categorise laws as those where harm arises from breaking them, and those where no harm arises. You are happy for each person to decide whether their illegal activity causes harm or not.


Most slight overspeed cause zero harm - and most are down to speed pick up on road surface or slight camber und person ist watching road ahead and not speedo. In danger areas - I set up the overspeed/cruise controllers as matter of course.

There are many silly laws... I am Swiss but will ask of pound of apples at green grocer .. this ist apparently illegal - but cannot see how green grocer selling me pound of carrots, onions, tomatoes is doing me or anyone else harm.

Nor can I see how eating home made cake made by Mrs Jones und on offer on tea stand, along with jars of home made jams und chutneys at school fair is against the law - but apparently under some bye-law of health and safety by do-goody brigade this ist case.... :roll:

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You believe that someone murdering you causes harm, but speeding does not. The problem is that this is just your view, there is no absolute view of harm, and someone else may think that speeding causes harm, but murdering you does not.


Ist bit different - somone deliberately killed in case of murder... joy riders und chav apart - most speeding offences are just blips over - and human foot pressure ist always going to fluctuate making speed blip between 4 mph over and under on any one journey - also road surface, polish and tyres will all impact on "feel" of the speed. Most are n 85th percentile as well - and most adjust as they see hazard ahead too. Accident occur when set of consequences converge by chance. Had I not had meeting that morning - I would not have set out earlier ... if panda driver had stopped car when he saw it swerve before he hit motorway... had driver of that car decided that he was not well enough to go to work in first place and follwoed his red signal instinct... IST "WHAT IF?" or SLIDING DOORS OF FATE!... It happened.. was fate. Am stronger person perhaps because of this...family relations are tighter - is always a positive out of a negative - mein Liebchen.... We move on - and we adapt and learn all the time - what I try to say....



Quote:
lauren o'dare wrote:
That makes as much sense as:

If it weren't for "all you" human beings murdering everyone there would be no need to shackle every single one of you to your beds.

What a bizarre extrapolation. Surely you can see that in general, laws are only created to address perceived problems, and that if people didn't exhibit the problem behaviour the law wouldn't be created? If nobody had ever been perceived to be driving "too fast" we would probably not have speed limits.



A law ist supposed to right a wrong - ist what judges do when they this "obtiter dicta" or "ratio decidendi" und set these precedents. As I understand it - English Law derived from Common Law
- from your local customs, travelling judges, equity, law merchants (courts of Pie Powder und Staple, Magan Carta und statutes - ist why British justice as opposed to constitutional or Roman based law has reputation of being dynamic und "with it" :wink: Political correctness und silliness in EU - undermines all this ...

But common law - based on TEN COMMANDMENT per the Bible - plus custom of cultural right and fair play. As we progress into industrial age - we find that machinery create hazard - so we incorporate common sense practice of health and safety into our laws - and to some extent we do this mit the speed limit. No one on this site ist saying we do without these - but that these speed limit truly reflect the hazard on this road.l Of course there will be roads which have become more built up und so we lower limit to address this but we should also recognise that our faster roads und our cars have also changed und adapt to allow for this change too. Und we are also saying that there ist room for discretion in the case of the slight and very safe infringement of some of these limits - within fair reason of course.

(Have to say - would not like to be on receiving end of IG's discipline lecture though - have known him all my life - my English cousin :wink: )

Deliberate blat with scant reagd for safety ist of course a very different matter. But the blip over - discretion should be adopted - und there should be no speed trap deliberately set up where aim of game ist to make money. These should be at the true black spots only.

That ist fair play mit law of land. :wink:

Of course the Swiss :furious: prosecute at 3 mph und hide them in wheely bins ... und in tunnels.....but you do note these oddly placed wheely bin

:lol:


Edit... have poster on wall with correct spellings... have always had this strange spelling problem ... messed in English lessons all the time :lol: Been putting some through a spell checker - but sometimes - forget...

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Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien
!


Last edited by WildCat on Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:12, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 22:58 
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stevei wrote:
I won't quote everything you said, lauren, but I don't believe I advocated that laws should be passed to control people's lives so much. My view is quite the opposite, I believe government intervention should be as minimal as possible. But I don't believe it is helpful for people to break laws that are passed, and I advocated campaigning against laws that you don't like, people in this country are far too reluctant to campaign against laws when it matters, which is before they are passed.


I'm sorry but I think youre getting very mixed up.

You clearly are implying that we should all stick rigidly to the speed limits, regardless of the fact that the law is completely wrong.
You then go on to talk about campaigning.... What do you think we are doing on the site.

Sometimes the powers that be get it very wrong, and usually when large amount of money are involved, as with the current speed enforcement.

The Nazis also got it wrong. Would you prefer that people campaigned to get their policies changed. An extreme example, I'll warrant, but a good one to show just how wrong the authorities can be if allowed to get away with it.

If you really believe that you are a danger to yourself and other road users just because you exceed a ridiculous limit then, perhaps we'd all be safer if you stayed off the road.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:09 
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PeterE wrote:
I have to say this does not tally with my own experience. I have done the IAM course which requires pretty close adherence to limits, and never found myself in that position of being aggressively tailgated. I also tend to drive within the limit or only marginally above on most urban 30s, and only very occasionally find anyone taking exception to this.

It may well be confined to specific roads. The roads round here where it happens have zero speed enforcement, so I guess it doesn't cause a problem for so many people to be driving so much over the limit. Also depends what you mean by marginally above - driving a little above can make a big difference to the "feel" of the speed, 35mph feels very different to 30mph, and will generally not result in the same annoyance, even if the driver behind would otherwise like to go faster, there comes a speed where they're just about happy to follow at that speed.

It also depends on time of day. Someone at work had only ever driven a car outside the rush hour, and switched from using the train to driving to work. His reaction on the first day was that he couldn't believe how fast everyone was driving compared to what he was used to on the same roads at different times of day.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:10 
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Genuine question: why do you think speed limits and speed limiters are good ideas? I don’t see that you’ve given any arguments that support them.

Certainly, in built-up areas and places where it's busy, yes, it's best to keep things slow so that everyone will have time to react.

But - and this is the usual "but" round here - in good conditions on NSL roads and motorways, speed limits are not nearly so useful. Speed limiters here strike me as a dreadful idea.

In New South Wales the state government has succeeded in making pretty much everyone drive at the speed limit pretty much everywhere, all the time. Out of town, this felt unsafe to me. I was surprised at how unsafe it felt.

The reason it felt unsafe was: if you kept strictly to the limit it was difficult to get to clear space. It was also difficult to keep space once you'd got it.

On roads where traffic could easily have been well spaced out, everyone tended to move in bunches. Tailgating was common, although it didn't seem as aggressive as it often does here. With everyone travelling at approximately the limit, the traffic tended to coalesce into clots, and spaces gradually seemed to contract.

After a while I gave up doing things the local way, and started driving pretty much as I drive in the UK: check for cameras and police, check for hazards, pass swiftly, achieve clear space, and ease off.

This might seem an elitist or selfish way of driving, but I don't think it necessarily is. If I have space, then someone else has space too. If conditions are suitable - good road, not too much traffic - then almost everyone should be able to drive at a speed that feels safe and comfortable to them, with good space all around.

As speed limiters would put paid to this, I'm not in favour of them at all.

Perhaps they would be a good idea in built-up areas, or very busy roads, but it seems unlikely that their operation would be restricted to areas where they might be useful.

Anyway, sorry to have rambled on for so long.

"The common good" can be difficult to get clear about. For one thing, there are so many people with so many different interests. Of course, there are some things that almost everyone agrees on: no one wants to be run over, knocked off their bike, or injured in a crash. So it seems sensible and desirable to take steps to make these things less likely. The trouble is, it's difficult to find measures that work. This becomes even more difficult if people insist on general solutions that are to be imposed everywhere, rather than on smaller steps that might work in particular sets of circumstances.

Certainly, rigidly enforced out-of-town speed limits won't make me feel any safer. And, although feelings can be deceptive, I'm certain they wouldn't make me objectively safer either.

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I suspect many people don't actually care about collective wellbeing, that's why they'll exploit any opportunity they can find to gain an advantage at someone else's expense, provided they think they can get away with it.


I don't think breaking the NSL is necessarily done at anyone else's expense. Actually, when I break the NSL, someone else may even benefit, though admittedly not by much. They'll have space, I won't be near them, and they can continue as if I didn't exist at all.

You're probably right though. Most people probably don't care much about collective well-being. It's rather abstract for a start. Some people might even want to add that despite this, capitalist democracies have done rather better in furthering the average well being of their citizens than any other arrangement that has been tried. Admittedly, average well-being is probably not the same as collective well-being.

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The other great aspect of everyone abiding by the rules is that it becomes easy to see whether something is working or not, so the rules can be improved to address genuine problems.


This sort of approach - let's call it the scientific method - is excellent when the aim is to discover a set of rules whose application will give results that can be measured as satisfactory or unsatisfactory. (E.g., you're writing code that should perform certain tasks - so you name your variables according to the prevailing convention - or you're testing a drug to see if it's useful - so you use a standard experimental design.)

But where this sort of thing is not the aim, trying to use the scientific method may be inappropriate, or even unethical.

That 3000 odd people are killed on our roads each year may seem so unacceptable as to justify any intervention that has at least some chance of reducing the toll. But we do have to ask, unacceptable compared to what? Compared to horses or barges, for example? We also have to ask if it is acceptable to treat road users as if they were experimental subjects. Could a nation-wide experiment with speed limiters be ethical?

The thing that most annoys me about scameras? It's a slightly odd thing to be annoyed about, but it's this: The object of the scameras is not to make anyone in particular drive more slowly. No, the object appears instead to be to arrange things so that the average motorist will on average drive more slowly.

This seems to me to be almost unethical. Partly because it's obviously an experiment, yet the consent of the subjects has not been properly sought. But partly because, in my view, the state is mandated to treat only with individuals. It has no mandate, for example, to take steps to ensure that youth, for the most part, shall be vigorous, disciplined and warlike, or that people, for the most part, will go to church on Sundays, or any of that kind of thing.

The state has a mandate to punish people who break the laws, but it has no mandate to try to engineer things so that laws will not be broken. This is probably a slightly peculiar view.

(Obviously, I don’t agree with SafeSpeed when he says that the fundamental purpose of the Law is to enforce social norms.)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:11 
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Julesm wrote:
You clearly are implying that we should all stick rigidly to the speed limits, regardless of the fact that the law is completely wrong.
You then go on to talk about campaigning.... What do you think we are doing on the site.

This site is campaigning for a change in enforcement, not a change in the law to bring people driving at sensible speeds within the law.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:17 
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A further point worth making on this issue is that there are plenty of laws where there is a sound justification for keeping the law, but on the other hand it is considered desirable to tolerate much lawbreaking behaviour.

A good example of this is the age of consent law, which exists for the very good reason of protecting children, but boys of 16¼ are virtually never prosecuted for having sex with girls of 15¾.

It would be a perfectly reasonable philosophical position to say that one personally aims to adhere to all speed limits, but believes that a low-tolerance enforcement approach is deleterious to safety.

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Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:27 
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glider wrote:
Genuine question: why do you think speed limits and speed limiters are good ideas? I don’t see that you’ve given any arguments that support them.

I'm not particularly a fan of speed limits. But in the context of having speed limits, and having fairly random and arbitrary enforcement of them, speed limiters are a way of allowing people to abide by limits without dangerous distraction, and without causing problems by having other people want to drive much faster.

glider wrote:
The reason it felt unsafe was: if you kept strictly to the limit it was difficult to get to clear space. It was also difficult to keep space once you'd got it.

On roads where traffic could easily have been well spaced out, everyone tended to move in bunches. Tailgating was common, although it didn't seem as aggressive as it often does here. With everyone travelling at approximately the limit, the traffic tended to coalesce into clots, and spaces gradually seemed to contract.

I like clear space, I like it a lot. If this really were the consequence of limiters I would oppose them. I'm not convinced it would be, but I'm willing to admit that it's an unknown. If I were in charge, I would be very open to changing things if such adverse consequences arose, and I may well have far too much faith in the good nature of our leaders.

I actually think that limiters could help with maintaining space by preventing people from catching you up like this. And you can always slow down to create space, allowing other traffic to pull out a gap in front of you, then speed up again to prevent more traffic from catching up behind you. And if you are on a single carriageway, I don't see why a driver with a limiter would tailgate another driver with a limiter, what on earth would be the point? But yes, some people are stupid, it's true.

glider wrote:
(Obviously, I don’t agree with SafeSpeed when he says that the fundamental purpose of the Law is to enforce social norms.)

I actually agree with Paul here - harm is really a concept of social norm, an act is only deemed harmful because people generally agree that it is harmful. So laws really come down to trying to prevent acts that people don't like, i.e. preserve social norms.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:32 
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stevei wrote:
Julesm wrote:
You clearly are implying that we should all stick rigidly to the speed limits, regardless of the fact that the law is completely wrong.
You then go on to talk about campaigning.... What do you think we are doing on the site.

This site is campaigning for a change in enforcement, not a change in the law to bring people driving at sensible speeds within the law.


This site is campaigning for effective and evidence based road safety policies. Cameras are not it.

I believe that the speed limit 'dreams' are fundamentally impossible. Peeople say if the speed limits were set properly everyone could / should obey them. But different people need different speed limits, to quite a marked degree actually. The people who need speed limits most are the underskilled and inexperienced minority. They are the weakest at adjusting speed to the conditions. Take motorways - most people think the limit needs to be raised - but the average experienced driver wouldn't change the speeds he uses. But the smallish underskilled/inexperienced group might and might also drive faster when conditions were not appropriate.

That's why we need low speed limits with discretionary enforcement. We need to set the limits for the benefit of the group(s) that need them most, but when we do that the limits are too low for most of us in good conditions. So it's impossible to set speed limits properly.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:34 
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stevei wrote:
I like clear space, I like it a lot. If this really were the consequence of limiters I would oppose them. I'm not convinced it would be, but I'm willing to admit that it's an unknown. If I were in charge, I would be very open to changing things if such adverse consequences arose, and I may well have far too much faith in the good nature of our leaders.

I actually think that limiters could help with maintaining space by preventing people from catching you up like this. And you can always slow down to create space, allowing other traffic to pull out a gap in front of you, then speed up again to prevent more traffic from catching up behind you. And if you are on a single carriageway, I don't see why a driver with a limiter would tailgate another driver with a limiter, what on earth would be the point? But yes, some people are stupid, it's true.

The only thing the lead driver in a queue of limited cars could do would be to slow down, which inevitably would tend to encourage those behind to catch up. I think it's fairly certain that limiters would lead to more bunching on all types of road, especially as they would tend to result in people driving on the limiter much of the time.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:38 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
I believe that the speed limit 'dreams' are fundamentally impossible. Peeople say if the speed limits were set properly everyone could / should obey them. But different people need different speed limits, to quite a marked degree actually. The people who need speed limits most are the underskilled and inexperienced minority. They are the weakest at adjusting speed to the conditions. Take motorways - most people think the limit needs to be raised - but the average experienced driver wouldn't change the speeds he uses. But the smallish underskilled/inexperienced group might and might also drive faster when conditions were not appropriate.

That's why we need low speed limits with discretionary enforcement. We need to set the limits for the benefit of the group(s) that need them most, but when we do that the limits are too low for most of us in good conditions. So it's impossible to set speed limits properly.

How about two speeds on each sign - legal limit, and suggested speed? We already have this on some roads, e.g. an individual bend might be too tight to take at the limit, so there is a sign with a suggested speed on it (and an experienced driver can often safely take the bend significantly faster). Speed limiters could enforce the legal limit, and just give some sort of warning when you exceed the suggested speed.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:43 
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PeterE wrote:
stevei wrote:
I like clear space, I like it a lot. If this really were the consequence of limiters I would oppose them. I'm not convinced it would be, but I'm willing to admit that it's an unknown. If I were in charge, I would be very open to changing things if such adverse consequences arose, and I may well have far too much faith in the good nature of our leaders.

I actually think that limiters could help with maintaining space by preventing people from catching you up like this. And you can always slow down to create space, allowing other traffic to pull out a gap in front of you, then speed up again to prevent more traffic from catching up behind you. And if you are on a single carriageway, I don't see why a driver with a limiter would tailgate another driver with a limiter, what on earth would be the point? But yes, some people are stupid, it's true.

The only thing the lead driver in a queue of limited cars could do would be to slow down, which inevitably would tend to encourage those behind to catch up. I think it's fairly certain that limiters would lead to more bunching on all types of road, especially as they would tend to result in people driving on the limiter much of the time.


Yep, exactly. Any vehicle that drives under the limited speed will soon accumulate a bunched queue behind. Even if it's only 1 in 50 that drives a bit slower we'd soon get bunches of 50.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:50 
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stevei wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
I believe that the speed limit 'dreams' are fundamentally impossible. Peeople say if the speed limits were set properly everyone could / should obey them. But different people need different speed limits, to quite a marked degree actually. The people who need speed limits most are the underskilled and inexperienced minority. They are the weakest at adjusting speed to the conditions. Take motorways - most people think the limit needs to be raised - but the average experienced driver wouldn't change the speeds he uses. But the smallish underskilled/inexperienced group might and might also drive faster when conditions were not appropriate.

That's why we need low speed limits with discretionary enforcement. We need to set the limits for the benefit of the group(s) that need them most, but when we do that the limits are too low for most of us in good conditions. So it's impossible to set speed limits properly.

How about two speeds on each sign - legal limit, and suggested speed? We already have this on some roads, e.g. an individual bend might be too tight to take at the limit, so there is a sign with a suggested speed on it (and an experienced driver can often safely take the bend significantly faster). Speed limiters could enforce the legal limit, and just give some sort of warning when you exceed the suggested speed.


The safe speed varies pretty wildly with the conditions. Sometimes it's zero mph (obstruction ahead). And there are so many 'conditions' factors.

All speed limits and recommended speeds cut two ways - they encourage people who are going slower to speed up and they encourage people going faster to slow down. I suspect the former group increases danger more than the latter group reduces it.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:51 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Any vehicle that drives under the limited speed will soon accumulate a bunched queue behind. Even if it's only 1 in 50 that drives a bit slower we'd soon get bunches of 50.

I'm still not convinced. I don't see this happening with lorries on motorways. Okay, you get the mile long overtake, but that can be avoided with a speed measurement system based on GPS so it isn't affected by tyre wear etc. I really don't believe that you particularly get clusters of lorries on motorways, not any more so than would be expected from random distributions, just like you should expect two consecutive lottery numbers to come up fairly often.


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