Safe Speed Forums

Hi everyone! Glad I found this forum as it looks great. Anyway this post is regarding 2 unfortunate experiences I have had in the past month.
The first one occured 4 weeks ago on a 30mph limit road, this limit is ridiculous as police reguarly speed down there in excess of 50mph and so do a lot of other drivers as the road is very wide and free from schools, houses etc, basically its not a built up area. So, there I am gunning it to get to a meeting that im already late for (no excuse, i know) and before I know it I have a police car speeding up behind me. I get the usual lecture of the dangers of speeding (which i didnt listen to, probably hould have)and he tickets me for doing 50 in a 30 which I was actually thanking him for as both he and I knew I was going ever so slightly faster.

3 weeks later Im driving my mums car on holiday in Cornwall on the A30 coming back from the eden project. Im on a dual carrigway doing 70 the limit was 60 but there were no signs to this effect, theres not much traffic etc, the road here then slopes down a very steep hill so Im caerful not to go too fast, then just as I get to the bottom I notice a bl00dy gasto camera under a bridge, flash, hes got me, bu99er!! Especially when I check the speedo under braking and its 94. Now im naturally cr@pping it. I thought I was doing around 70-80 but the hill, as i said was very steep and I should have been watching my speedo a bit closer. So the following week I get the form through the post and have to send of my details as it wasnt my car and I was the driver (still havnt sent it off yet) and on looking on the internet I understand that I will get a court summons as this will be classed as exessive speed.

Now, I already have 3 points for speeding but these are now 4 years old (not sure if they will be taken in to account) plus I will get another 3 for the 1st offence and probably 6 for the second (will the judge give me a harsher penalty as the 2 occured within the month?). I am trying to find out whether I will get a ban. What does everyone on here think of my chances. Also will the court summons require me to attend court in Cornwall as thats 400 miles from where I live. I dont need anyone telling me im an idiot as believe me, I already know that and since all this I have been obsessive about sticking to the limit. The camera that caught me was a perfect example of a revenue builder, there was absolutly no reason for having a camera on the bottom of a steep hill as the road climbs up after the camera so any speeding car will slow down on climbing the other side.
Any advice regarding this would be greatly appreciated as I am very concerned about losing my licence which has been clean for the past 4 years plus I have never had any claims on my insurance and I dont want to lose all my no claims and start over again.
Many Thanks
Dan

Hi Dan,

Welcome to the forum,

Now I know you don't want criticism regarding the above two tales of woe, but I sense a bit of a problem with hazard perception which if unchecked will affect your driving career.

You talk about a 30mph road which is free from hazards, now this may be true, but there is usually some reason for the imposition of a 30 limit, whether it is the presence of vulnerable road users (pedestrians) who may need to cross the road, commercial premises with slow moving vehicles pulling out, etc. Now by your own admission the BiB seems to have offered you 'discount for cash' as +50 would have landed you in front of the 'beak', so not too many complaints there.

Then in the same month you are caught doing 94 in a 60 limit. Now I don't know the road in question, but if it is a dual-carriageway it must have 60 mph repeater signs to indicate that the speed limit is 60 not 70. It may be a two lane single carriageway with no physical central carriageway separator, in which case the max speed is 60, NSL signs at the start, but no repeater signs required.
You correctly suggest that speed creeps on when travelling downhill, but perhaps the siting of the gatso, and the advanced speed camera signing, is attempting to protect an accident hospot, caused by the added difficulty to reduce speed caused by gravity.
You don't say what speed you were recorded at, but you suggest it is in excess of 94mph. If it was 94 in the 60 limit, you will be summonsed and will be required to attend the court at Cornwall. Speeds over 30 mph over the higher limits are sufficient for the courts to consider disqualification on its own, so your attendance will be necessary.
I'd suggest that you should check the signing on that road, perhaps someone on this site may be able to help you there. If all signing is correct, then having committed the offence, your best option is mitigation and plea to retain your licence, using such arguments as favourable road conditions, good weather, light traffic volumes, your hopefully exemplary driving record (collision free) etc. You must also explain that you would suffer hardship if you were awarded a period of disqualification (maximum for 94 in a 60 would likely be 14 to 21 days).
Your previous points should be off by now, so from experience I'd judge that you're more likely to get a fairly stiff fine for the 94mph in lieu of the disqualification.
But you have to learn from this. Whether you agree with automatic enforcement or not, you ignore it at your peril!

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Ian

Ian's answer talks much sense appart from this bit.....



I totally disagree with this, its about money, not safety, they have a 30 limit, they don't need repeater signs and sticking a gatso there will raise money. Hell, we'll stick a Police speed trap there too, could potentially make a fortune.

Hiya Dan and welcome to the site, sorry to hear you've been the victim of a scamera!

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I disagree with both of you... And agree with both of you...

If you think about it, you're both right. As Ian says, there can be valid, non-obvious reasons for the imposition of an apparently unsuitable limit on a road - commercial premises with slow-moving traffic being a prime example. On the other hand, as you suggest, there are an increasing number of roads having "Politically Correct" speed limits applied (Walsall MBC is an absolutely classic example of a council gone bonkers in this respect) which are largely ignored by the vast majority of motorists and thus become prime cash-collecting sites.

I wouldn't go quite so far into conspiracy theory as to suggest that the councils and partnerships are in collusion, but...

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

So first of all you get caught by a marked police car which followed you in a 30 limit at a speed approaching double the limit (you admitted it was well over 50), then, shortly after being cautioned for that you go through a yellow-painted camera, after a camera warning sign (presumably) in a 60 limit at almost 100 mph (reading between the lines).
It's difficult to see how you'll avoid a ban of at least a month, maybe more.
I hate to preach as we all speed, but maybe some advanced driver training plus more concentration on your spacial awareness would help you to avoid this in future. Some might say that failing to see a police car catching you up when you were almost double the limit was careless driving as well. It's hard to feel sorry when drivers are getting banned for a few offences of 36 mph in a 30 limit over 3 years, not two offences at really high speed (for the limit) in a very short space of time.
The limits may be unrealistic but Ian is right, you might not like them, but don't just ignore them and hope for the best.

Thanks for the replys everyone, some useful advice there! a great forum too by the way! Just a couple of things I left out or things I should have made clearer.

Firstly Ian H stated that the road could be classed as a single lane carrigway. Indeed it was, this got me confused as I thought that 2 lanes on each side constituted a dual carrigway, thanks for pointing that out.

Also there were no warning signs regarding the camera, it was hidden under a bridge and was only visible as you passed underneath the bridge, which I think will cause more accidents not redeuce them. If I had been stupid I could have slammed on my brakes and caused a big accident, instead I knew there was no safe way I could slow down to 60 without causing a hazard to fellow road users. Then again I shouldnt have been doing more than 60 anyway.

I am relieved to hear that I am probably only looking at a stiff fine and around 6 points. That will bring my total to 9 so I have no more chances. The strange thing about allthis is that in 8 years of driving I have never been stopped by the police (1 camera fine doing 5mph over the 30 limit!), never had any scrapes and always pride myself on my driving ability. Yes I do drive over 70 on the motorways as I feel a lot more alert and comfortable at higher speeds, and I do drive in excess of the speed limits were it is safe to do so and in doing this I have never had any problems, scrapes, brushes with the law or near death experiences!

All of this cr@p happened within 4 weeks and since this time, if anything, my driving ability has gone down the pan. I am made to drive at speeds were I dont feel comfortable, sometimes downright concerned for my life and very paranoid and Im now looking at my speedo more than the road. All this is supposed to make me a safer driver eh?.... erm BULLSH!T. If anything this has put me off driving altogether and in all honesty I can't see myself being made to drive like this for 3 years, I can, however see myself losing my license within this time.
Rant over and thanks agian for the advise.

I can sympathise with you on the downhill-creep, especially if the road had 'NSL' engineering and traffic volume was low, then it's very easy to creep to those speeds while making use of the space -



Sorry, but your kind of putting words into Ians' mouth - he was referring to automatic enforcement of a speed limit - ignoring yellow boxes knowing full well they will clock you if your over the limit would be daft, but showing any consideration to a non-enforced speed limit, that you know is unrealistic for the conditions, is in effect giving it credibility



THat depends on what car, and how far down you right foot is
Anyways, Ian pretty much gives you all the information your after

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I agree, however the 1st quote you gave was not written by me, think it was the post before my last one, if that makes sense!

on what basis exactly?

On the basis that I drive safely at all times, im not a wreckless or dangerous driver. Even though I have been caught speeding twice, no-one can say I was driving dangerously/wrecklessly, it depends on your definition of dangerous and/or wreckless. Very light traffic, 2 lanes, dry roads, downhill, cant see that I ws driving wrecklessly in these conditions, mabye if I was hitting 120+ then that would have been wreckless/dangerous/both.

Also the fact that I am teaching my Mum how to drive, she is also paying for driving lessons too. Her instructor saw she was improving quite quickly and he offered me a job as an instructor (after he had seen my driving) offering to pay for my training. Unfortunatly I couldnt take him up on his offer as Im in full time university.

Finally everyone who has been in a car with me, there has not not been one occassion when anyone has felt at risk or scared, even though I have been driving over needless speed limits, and before anyone criticises these choice of words, I mean limits that are far too low and during conditions were it is safe to drive slightly faster. I am not saying its safe to exceed all speed limits, I can only talk about some of the speed limits in my local area, ones that I know are so low they are not even enforced by the police. Regularly I have had police overtaking me in a 40limit or I have been following a police car at 50 in a 40 and they dont blink an eye.
I have also taken part in track days were I have been able to safely push the limits of my car and been taught useful driving tips as well, plus driven a rally car round a dirt track course a few times with an ex rally driver which was great fun, it was one of those extreme gift voucher prezzies.
On a final note was thinking of taking advanced driving lessons too, but now Im not so sure as I may get banned and my insurance wont go down at all.

Going slightly off the subject here but I hope I have in some way answered your question.

One of my employees was caught in a 40mph limit in Bournemouth.

It is a dual carriageway with no pedestirian access, no pavements, a large hedge on the central reservation making it impossible to cross and a huge pedestrian bridge to take any possibility of a pedestrial getting near it. They stick a small black camera out near the road and hide the van totally behind a hedge. No visibilty here!

Now Dorset Speed Cameras made a surplus (PC Word for nett profit) of well over £5,000,000 last year.

The reason for this limit seems to be purely financial.

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I felt it needed asking as you've been sprung twice in a few weeks for doing nearly double the limit.


that would be a good start. Haven't met an instructor yet who would suggest breaking any limit below 50. Would probably have saved you at least one fine.

i spent a week in Cornwall in the Summer,

When will motorists learn that to drive at a speed they think that the road is capable of allowing even though we know that the limit might not be right. When you make a decision to exceed the speed limit by 20+mph then it is a deliberate act,why dont you just accept the punishment when caught fair and square,instead of whinging and whining about how the authoritys are out to make money,rubbish,as it has been said you were followed by a marked car and you fail to look in your mirror to see that you are driving into the inevitable then you have only yourself to blame dont you think. I regulary carry out speed checks in 30mph limit and I regularly get vehicles travelling up to speeds of 62mph guess what they whinge and whine. Accept your responsibility like a man if you cant do the time then dont do the crime thats my motto. So,I think I will go and hide in my bunker before the flack starts.
Stephen

Sorry mate, but 94 to 60 is a wee bit of a piss take don't you think? You must be having a laugh with us aren't you? I don't think any sane person on this board is advocating speeds like that.

Also, another problem with bloody speed cameras, is that many are more concerned with keeping their licenses 'clean' than the consequences of their actions if they were to hit someone. It's the same old story, stay within 30 and you'll be alright my son.

As Ian said, hazard perception is the key and hazard perception will also dictate the speed as well, which as Stephen put it, depends alot on what the road itself will allow as opposed to what the driver thinks he/she is capable of.

Stephen, I am not winging and whining. I fully accept that I have been a class A idiot, to the extreme! The first incident I spoke of happened on a road with a 30mph limit. The only reason (and I know for a fact) that this road has a 30 limit is that there used to be a school located on it. It has since been demolished, years ago.
I noticed the police car as I rounded a bend, he was gaining on me very quickly. We had a chat about the said speed limit and he kind of agreed with me. Thats the reason he gave me a fixed penalty, I could have lost my licence there and then. There was no talk of me driving dangerously whatsoever, in fact we chatted for 10 minutes. The part I didnt listen to was the 1 minute lecture he gave me on speeding which both he and I knew that he had to say, you could tell by the way he said it.

Secondly you state that to drive in 20mph in excess of the speed limit is a deliberate act. Now I like thousands of others drive a high perfomance car and when your concentrating ON THE ROAD and not on the speedo, its sometimes hard to tell an increase of that speed.

Let me tell you, I am accepting my punishment like a man. For the past month I have been driving only when and if necessary. I fully accept what I have done. I am being tainted as a "dangerous driver" , a "law breaker", a "criminal". Bieng a police officer Im sure you see a lot of certifiable idiots who when they are caught do whinge and whine and try to get out of it. Im sure also, you have seen the ugly concequeces of speeding. What im trying to say is "please dont tar everyone with the same brush". I came on to this forum for a bit of friendly advice (and also a bit of a rant) not to hear someone like your goodself imply that I am not accepting responsibility for my actions. I asure you that I am. Its just a dam shame that this is making me a worse driver ie-SPENDING MORE TIME CHECKING MY SPEEDO WHEN I SHOULD SPENDING THIS TIME LOOKING AT THE ROAD, (not shouting just want you to notice this).

On a final note the road where I was pulled over is about a mile long. The police car pulled me at the end of it. When I spoke to the officer he told me that he had to get up to 95mph to catch me. Now dont you think thats a tad in excess of the 30mph speed limit. I know how fast I was going and it was no where near this speed. I genuinly forgot to mention this in my 1st post but its worthy of note.

In reply to Camera operator, this isnt the same road. There were defo no chevrons present. Below is the location of the camera :-

A30 Roseworthy, (Eastbound), Camborne, Cornwall.

And to johno 1066, no Im not having a laugh with you, are you seriously telling us that you have never driven at 94mph, not even for a second, because dont forget, a second is all it takes, its all it took me to get flashed by a camera. I was only driving at that speed down a steep hill for about 10 seconds. This was a momentary lapse of concentration and not a prolonged 20mile drive at 90mph, the courts wont see it like that though, they will probably assume I was doing 90 for the length of the A30!

Finally I want to make it crystal clear that I am not a wreckless driver. I joined this forum not because I disagree with police enforcement of speeding, but because i disagree totally with the use of speed cameras to enforce speed limits. Period. Thank you.

My car is relatively high performance as well and all I can say is that if you can nearly double your speed without noticing then you have a major problem. For starters you're probably driving in the wrong gear if you can't hear the difference between 30 and 50+. If you're rolling down a hill at 60mph and obviously picking up speed - although doubtful that you'd pick up 40mph accidentally - then knock it back a gear (or more if appropriate).

Have a look at this page: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speeding.html

The problem isn't with the law or the drivers. The problem is with enforcement practice. The safety link has been lost.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
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dan6000 I have to say that to be honest you sound a bit of a fool. If I had 3 active points on my licence with another 3 pending I would be sticking like glue to the speed limit whether it was justified or not. I hear what you're saying about paying more attention to the road than to your speedo, but it only takes a fraction of a second to glance down to check your speed and if you didn't understand the difference between a single and dual carriageway and the related implications to the NSL then you have a serious problem and should strongly consider some re-training.

Read posts my the majority of this forum's users and you will realise that we are all skilled, conciencious and knowledgable drivers (some of whome are advanced / police trained). Although I'm sure everyone has sympathy for your predicament, at the end of the day you can only blame one person, whether you agree with the camera location / enforcement methods or not. Risking that kind of speed on a road clearly marked with scamera warning signs is just plain stupid.

At the end of the day, there's a time and a place to enjoy your car.

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I think that's a little strong. I had 3 points on my licence already when I got pinged a second time because I didn't really change my driving much, but they were nearly four years apart rather than nearly 4 weeks because I started looking out for places where cameras and speed traps would be. IIRC I was on 6 points for about 3-4 months before the first 3 expired. I feel that these days spotting speed traps and cameras is a necessary part of the O in COAST That said, Dan6000, you probably should have taken some of the lead out of your boot - on the map it looks like a road that's easy to go fast on, but for that reason alone I'd half expect to find a Devon & Cornwall talivan at the bottom somewhere, probably on the hill the other side of the stream as you approach the dual carriageway to catch anyone who got up to 70 early a la Marlow Hill. Turns out it was a Gatso instead. Incidentally, I'm trying to work out exactly where it is. You said it was under a bridge, but AFAICS the A30 doesn't pass under any bridges there. Can you straighten me out please? I'm just trying to work out how well hidden or not the camera is.

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