Safe Speed Forums

The tailgating topic got me thinking, I've come up with a little theory and wonder if people would agree with it.

Thanks to rigorous speed enforcement, many drivers are going to find a speed at which they feel safe (from prosecution) and stick to it for as much as possible (some then tailgating as the person in front is making them take even longer to get home, when the speed cameras are already delaying them)

At the bottom end, we have the HGVs who are limited to 56mph

Just above them we have the people who think the NSL sign means 60, and drive at an indicated 60, so probably around 58 mph.

Then we have the people who want to stick to the letter of the law to be safe, so drive at an indicated 70, so around 66mph

Next is the people who want to do the same thing but are pedantic about it. These people have road angels or aftermarket satnav systems like tomtom that give a speed reading unaffected by speedo error, and stick to exactly 70

Then there are the people who have looked into the prosecution thresholds and choose to drive at exactly 78mph as indicated byy their Road Angel

Lastly there are the people who dont care and drive at 80+

Now we take this lot and lump them all onto a 3-lane motorway, all of them wanting to get home as quickly as possible, and we wonder why people get pissed off and tailgate, and why we have such terrible bunching.

I've read here many times that people overtaking at very similar speeds (the 3 mile overtake) cause a great danger, but in the current situation this is pretty much a given.

Prior to the current climate of camera paranoia, the last 4 groups would all be driving at very different speeds and most likely paying a lot more attention to the road rather than trying to keep the speed between 77.5 and 78.4

To be honest I think it a lot of the problems we get on motorways be it tailgating and such stem from poor lane discipline. Get that sorted and the other problems will largely disappear. If the people who want to do 60-70 get used to driving in L1 where practical then the one who are doing around about 70-80 will by and large be able to overtake in the middle lane(moving to L1 if possible) thus allowing the faster traffic doing 80+ to have a good run in the outside lane, moving to L2 when possible. IMO it would make a huge difference. The ex-tailgater in L3 won't be as bothered about someone doing 75 if they are only overtaking one car. The present situation means someone doing 75 has to use L3 to overtake lots of members of the middle lane owners club doing 60-65.

I kinda agree with you that most people have a crusing speed that they feel comftable with if there is no hazards they need to slow down for. I don't however feel that cameras have had a huge effect on this. So long as people are slowing if need be to negotiate a hazard then I think it's fine that people drive at a speed they feel comftable with, so long as it's appropriate for the conditions.

Get lane discipline right however and most of the problems will dissapear. They can do it in France and Germany(I am told) so why can't we?

Nope, at the bottom end you get Micra drivers who drive at about 50 mph and feel intimidated by all the "speeding HGVs" passing them

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

^

That was a bit harsh, Peter

Motorways can vary so much depending on conditions and people need to keep their distance and use common sense to adapt to the variations regardless of what vehicle is in what lane - they do after all have just as much right to the road as you do. It's more a case of improving discipline, which in turn will reduce accidents and perhaps give even stronger foundation to remove the speed limit like back in the 60s'

I've only been driving for a couple of years, and used to sustain triple-digit speeds down uncongested stretches of M-way, but I enjoy driving too much to give anything over 70mph a try anymore, I don't want to lose my license or pay fines to the blastad government. I even refrain from overtaking and sometimes look a bit like those Micras' that Peter was referring to

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My friends call me RuFFy

Now if the government took road safety seriously we would see the likes of these pulled over for driving at an inappropriate speed - number of times i see this sort aproaching J3 of the M6, in convoy with several HGV in L2 and a host of traffic in L3 looking for a way past and into L1 to get off.Fortunately a lot of HGV drivers appreciate this and let cars accross into L2 to try and find a way into L1

Sorry if it came across as harsh, it was meant to be tongue in cheek.

In fact Micras are dynamically superior to many other cars in that class (Corsas in particular) but so often seem to be chosen by timid, unassertive drivers that "Micra driver" has become a commonplace stereotype.

There are many situations on the motorway, especially when doing short journeys, when staying in Lane 1 and keeping pace with the lorries is a sensible policy - and if you're only doing 4 or 5 miles, the time saved by trying to overtake them will be negligible.

However, if someone is routinely choosing to drive below the HGV limited cruising speed on motorways, then I would suggest their skills and confidence levels aren't up to the job. Even if you're doing your damnedest to keep your licence and often refrain from overtaking I'm pretty sure you're not doing that.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I was trying to comment on the fixed speeds caused by camera enforcement and the general clampdown on speed as the root of all evil.

I'll agree that the 50mph brigade are a menace, but they would continue to be such even if the speed limits are removed.

The point is that we have a lot of people with absolute fixed driving speeds that are very close to each other all lumped onto one road and trying to get past each other.

Think about how long you are sat in the other person's blindspot if they are doing a speedo indicated 70 and you overtake them at a GPS indicated 70, especially if the vehicle is a van. In the old days I'd just speed up a little during the person's blindspot if my preferred cruising speed was only a little over theirs, and I'd speed up if someone else was approaching from behind, to minimise the inconvinience to them.

These days that's a good way to get 3 points and a fine.

As for people having to fight their way across into L1, perhaps high-speed banked car-only offramps appearing in the central reservation could be useful in solving this.. more signs in the central reservation would be nice too.

A few years ago my preferred motorway speed in good conditions would vary around 80-90 mph, with my speed varying in order to maximise space around me relative to other traffic, and to minimise "time alongside" during overtakes (either my own or other peoples). After about 20 years of driving I've found that this sort of speed range very comfortable - fast enough to be engaging but not reckless, in other words a "sensible" sort of speed to travel at on a typical UK motorway.

Now I find I use the cruise control an awful lot, with it latched in at about 75 indicated, to give a cruising speed around the limit, but well inside the ACPO limits. The net effects of this change are that I get tailgated a lot more, I spend much longer alongside other vehicles, and there is an ever present tendency to creep up behind slower vehicles whilst anticipating an overtaking opportunity.

I don't really like driving this way, but in modern quiet vehicles over long distances it is just so easy to have an occasional lapse and find your speed creeping up to the mid 80s rather than the intended 70ish, and like most people I don't want to commit "speed crime".

I must admit I do have the occasional "moment of madness", where I knock off the cruise control and drive more safely for a few miles, but touch wood I've not been caught yet!

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Actually - the onr time i drove a micra i was very surprised at it's ability to cope with Motorway speeds and other situations - bit small car for my liking but for a small engine very nice.

Lum - on reflwction there is another motorway speed you did not take into consideration -


STOP

In France motorways have a minimum speed - circa 50mph I believe.

If we had on motorways a minimum speed of say 55mph then vehicles/drivers unwilling to do that would not go on the motorway (less traffic).

Also if the maximum speed on motorways (not A roads) for HGV and the rest was riased to 70mph then we would get the inside lane moving much quicker.

Overall the average speed would improve as the fear some drivers have of being stuck in the inside lane would diminish as the speeds would be higher.

Except that Motorways are the most suitable roads for large loads to be taken down, and these will normally go much slower than that.

However I really do think that such vehicles should be banned from the motorways during peak traffic hours, for some reason the current practice appears to be that they should be in the busiest motorway sections at the busiest times, and hence cause a lot of congestion. Why are they not going through that area at 3am?

I wrote to my local scam to complain anout this some months back. That basically aggressive speed enforcement had made the roads more dangerous.

Guess what.

They took issue with the term agressive and said the rest was a matter for the police.

You don't have to drive at 70mph on a motorway just because it's the speed limit. I'm sure that most of the drivers doing around 60-65 mph are fully aware of what the speed limit is but are choosing not to drive that fast. Maybe they are trying to save fuel (it's more economic to drive around the 58mph you mentioned). Also some cars are not so powerful and can find 70mph a bit of a struggle.

Which cars find 70 a struggle? Austin A40's? 2CV's? My car is a paultry 89hp and at 70 it's idling.

Overtook, well sailed past an old dear in a fiesta today on a dual carrageway. It was like she was going backwards, I wasn't even flat out, I wasn't even in my car, but the almighty scooter!

I had a 1989 Fiat Panda (1 litre) which I bought off Ebay for £160 - was to mess around with. I've now sold it to a neighbour and he sorted out the bits and pieces - but he tells me it does struggle for 70mph -but he doesn't push his luck with it, and cruises at 56mph with the HGVs quite comfortably

He also claimed 450 miles on a tank. The car is quite zippy and would keep with most sub 1600cc cars - it weighs a lot less, good little car

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My friends call me RuFFy

Quite a few will find that at 70mph they don't have a whole lot in reserve and so 60-65 is probably more comftable, enabling there to be a bit extra there if needed. If anyones driven an Escort 55 with Ford's 1800 Endura Diesel engine then you will agree with me that it isn't the fastest of things, will just about do 70mph on the flat. A Peugoet Boxer I borrowed could only manage an indicated 50mph up the M65 at Shadsworth(very steep Mway hill). This was partly because I couln't get a run up, but was terribly slow at the best of times. Ok so thats a van, but I bet quite a few cars with an old generation diesel engine will stuggle a bit on the hilly parts.

I rather people drove happy, with a 'relaxed concentration'(as per COAST) at 65 mph then felling hurried at higher speeds. However, they must remember to use L1 where possible!

...on the other hand, to other people in other cars 70mph may seem stupefyingly slow.
I would say that most modern cars are capable of relaxed cruising at 80+.
Of course you get the gutless wonders, but these are the exception.

Cheers
Peter

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Of course, which is why if people choose or are forced to go at a slower pace then they should make sure they 'keep left' as much as possible.

The sooner there's a motorway element made mandatory in new driver education and testing, the better.

When I think back to my first few journeys on the motorway, they were, frankly, terrifying. Exacerbating the situation was the realisation that I was driving on a road that I had had no training for, at all. Everything was faster; I didn't know, at the time, simple things like making an early lane change on approach to an on-slip, let alone such things as being able to pass slower traffic to the right (but you're not allowed to move to the left to do it), and I was thoroughly intimidated.

Thankfully, I was put in the position of having to do a lot of motorway driving and this at least allowed me to overcome the fear, and I like to think I'm an attentive and considerate motorway driver; I do at least try to plan as far ahead as possible.

While many driving schools will offer motorway lessons, I think that making them a part of the normal driver education process would raise the standards of motorway driving in this country.

It should always be remembered, though, that our motorways are exceptionally safe; however, resting on these laurels would be most foolhardy. Just because perfection cannot be achieved should not stop us from striving for it.

I inclined to support this. I know a number of people who are, frankly, frightened of motorways, especially when busy, to the lengths of trying to avoid them whenever possible. This means, of course, when they HAVE to use one, they are scarcely in the best frame of mind to drive safely.

Prof Beard