Safe Speed Forums

To summarise this thread:

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the wacky world of the anti-car planners paradise!

Regards

Andrew

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It's a scam........or possibly a scamola


Homer Simpson

Actually, Ernest, if the lights fail, the traffic flows far better!

I'll do that, although I'm not sure when I'll be in Redcar next. I would say that there are examples all over the country.

If the junction went in becasue of Morrisons, then it owuld probably be the supermarket that paid for the signals aand which were designed by the company's consultants. If the local authority is typical of others, there will be a complete lack of experienced and qualified personnel to approve the layout. You often end up with these developer funded junctions being dangerous because of it.

As I say though, often blanket guidance from DfT prevents anything being done about it. For example, two lanes (a segregated left turn and another combined right and straight ahead) with an offset pedestrian crossing could well require 6 separate poles because of this guidance. Multiply that by 4 arms and you are left with a maze of signals. You then have to look at putting louvres on the aspects becasue you can see so many lights from each lane, it becomes confusing.

My point to some of the posters in this thread is to try and come up with alternatives before branding each layout "madness", "ignorant" and "senseless". If you can't, then........

It's not always down to we road planners (although I think the issue here is designers) - there are often other circumstances of which most are not always aware.

If there is a reason why the common sense solution can't be applied then it should be explained, say via the local paper. Personally I think traffic lights are used too liberally becasue they are cheaper then a roundabout. Granted sometimes it's not possible, but generally I think they are much better for traffic flow.

Also, could we not consider the use of French style traffic lights where they have the repeater lights in a small cluster at the drivers eye-level? Looks much tidier to me.

Hi millsee, good to have you around and get another angle on things.
My very strongly held opinion is as follows:
Generally speaking, roundabouts are heaps better and more efficient and safer and probably cheaper than light-controlled systems.

The control versus freedom issues obviously need to be intelligently investigated and acted upon, but this does not always happen IMO.

As I have said on other posts, I am a great roundabout fan, and the common usage of roundabouts in the UK road system is, generally excellent. Compare this to the situation in the Netherlands, where traffic light controlled systems are very frequently used where a simple roundabout system would be much more efficient and safer.
However, I get the impression now that the tide is turning, and there are far more (unnecessary, IMO) light systems in the UK sprouting up. Funnily enough, I am also noticing more "simple" roundabout systems in the Netherlands! So the Dutch are learning, while the UK is afflicted by "control-freakery" .

As has been pointed out by other posters, I too have witnessed improved traffic flow at light-controlled junctions when the system goes "out" for whatever reason. Or my favourite (and true) story, where a very busy London junction was flowing ok when the lights stopped working in the rush hour, but then got clogged up when the police turned up and started directing the traffic! What does this tell us?

I'm convinced that road planning divisions of local councils are populated by tofu-eating wooly headed bicycle riding car haters. Anyone who understands traffic flow (ie, "drivers" of one of thoise despicable un-PC car things) doesn't get a look-in. seriously, the number of junctions that have been "modified" to make them "bus-friendly", which roughly translated means "save the bus ten seconds by completely screwing every other vehicle trying to use the junction" multiplys every year. The result they never factor in is that the bus just gets delayed 100 yards before the junction from the sheer weight of traffic now held up.

I have seen so many examples of this it's unreal.

Another good example are junctions where the busses have a bus lane till the traffic lights which becomes a left-turn lane as well, except the majority of busses turn right. plus theres a bus stop 50 yards before the junction. So you have busses attempting to force their way into the right hand lane at the last moment while most of the cars in the right hand lane are attempting to get left because of the right-turners. kinda like the corssover on a scaletrix.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

Last post puts me in mind of A38 into Birmingham from Minworth.
Road is Dual carriageway. Suddenly two lanes of traffic have to merge into one lane as the other becomes a Bus Lane.
Further on the bus lane dissapears and we have two lanes.
Lo just as all is calm again , we have a bus lane. This continues,from memory to the M6 juncton.
Wondered whether this was "planned" by "planners" on pub quiz night in happy hour , or did they ever stop to consider how two lanes of traffic merged into one ,t rush hour ,with no chaos,
or did they care

Of course, the more bus/cycle/walking schemes are developed, the more money the council gets form central government in the annual LTP settlement.

The naive amongst us would say that improves job security

Yes - and in certain parts of the midlands we have seen a move out of London areas by firms . How many more will move out of areas because their needs are car based to avoid the anti car brigade?

In Carlisle, there is a massive junction, with a roundabout, AND lights, with pedestrian underpass. It's called Hardwicke Circus, and is further complicated by an exit from an entertainment venue.
When the area was flooded in January, the lights went out, and it was universally reported things got better!
After some pressure, the Council agreed to an experiment, and the lights went off. However some parties did not like the idea, so their heart is not really in it, but it seems that at all times other than peak levels (45 - 60 minutes twice a day) traffic moves better through the junction.
The one exception appears to be when a concert or similar is on at the Sands Centre, as they often queue to get out.
The council are resisting part time lights on the grounds the DfT advise against them - yet there are hundreds around the country which work superbly!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I care little for queues coming out of a development. The highway authority's primary concern should be for free-flowing traffic on the public highway.

It reminds me of my time at an authority who shall remain nameless. I took a call from a woman on a mobile phone who had been "stuck in a queue for 45 minutes trying to get out of her business park office car park". I gave the usual apologies to which she started crying. I found myself struggling to deal with her until she dropped the killer line:

"I wouldn't mind, but I only live 5 minutes walk away from here".

"Yeah. OK."

*click...brrrrr............