Safe Speed Forums

For some time now, free parking has been limited to 2 hours at motorway service stations. I've seen draconian warning notices this week about fining (£80) and clamping vehicles (£250 release fee) who overstay 2 hours. It's possible to pay a fee (I've seen £3, £8, and £12) to stay for longer.

Surely this bonkers scheme must cause more sleepy drivers to try and battle on? In particular, if someone feels the need to sleep for an hour, some won't dare to incase they oversleep and get clamped or fined. It seems to me that we need free parking for 8 or 10 hours to avoid unnecessary pressure on sleepy drivers.

I think we should highlight the danger caused and campaign to have a more flexible arrangement. But first I must uncover the entire background. For example:

* Who is responsible?
* Why have they done this?
* What risk assessments did they carry out?
* How did they come up with the wrong answer?
* What problem were they trying to solve?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It was done to make money out of drivers using the services for a kind of car pool thing. In the past I have met up with a workmate, parked up at a services then gone in one car. I know others who have done it for car sharing on long commutes. It was rolled aout about 4 years ago.

There is a guy who wanders up and down taking numbers so the do enforce it but I was reliably informed the stop enforcing at about 4:00 when the guy goes home so you would be alright overnight

2 hours is a bit short though. But you do get a voucher for a free cup of coffee.

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Speed camera policy Kills

I don't think it is unreasonable to charge people for using service area car parks for commuting, as that is not what they were intended for.

However IMV the free period should be considerably longer - maybe 5 hours instead of 2.

It does say the following on the MOTO website:

http://moto-way.com/page.cfm?Section=8.3&FAQID=1


However, most drivers won't be aware of that and it's not clear that other operators take the same view.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

It always has been 2 hours since MSAs were first conceived.

The 2 hours comes from the Government guidelines on MSAs, Roads Circular 1/94: http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d ... 505175.pdf



Only recently have MSAs taken advantage of changes in legislation regarding parking on private land which allows them to fine/clamp/tow wrongly parked cars.

There has never been an intention from Government to allow vehicles to stop for more than 2 hours.

To be honest, I can't see why you would want to. If you are so tired that you need to stop for longer than that, then you shouldn't be on the motorway at all.

Edit: I think your views on this are misguided, SS. You miss the whole purpose of MSAs. Where did you get 8 or 10 hours from and what risk assessments did you carry out to arrive at that figure?

I understand the most refreshing amount of sleep you can have is about twenty minutes as a nap when you are tired. Longer and you go into deep sleep from which it is difficult wake properly. Shorter and it doesn't do so much good.

Perhaps essential safety equipment in a car should be an alarm clock.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

You wouldn't say that if you lived in North Scotland. It's commonplace for me to set off knowing that I'll need a few hours sleep before the journey is completed.



The point here is that drivers MUST feel free to sleep if they need to, and not 'battle on' against increasing fatigue. We know we have large numbers of sleep related crashes, and I'm confident that we could improve the situation by allowing better rest facilities.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

And they needn't be terribly elaborate or expensive. I like the French idea of the quite frequent "aire de..." which is basically a picnic site, a reasonable number of parking places and a public lavatory (!!!).. Very similar things in Spain too - generally without "les lavabos".

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

Public as in anybody can see into the toilet stalls!!
Maybe it cuts down on vandalism?

I agree with Paul - from North Scotland to the south is a l o n g drive.

It's bad enough for me when I do Windermere to Portsmouth when going on holiday. It also adds a big cost in fuel onto a continental touring holiday.
Naturally the fare on the ferry is dearer if you travel overnight or first thing, and places norhtern drivers at a disadvantage.
I have to sell a lot more booze and fags when I get home in my white van to cover the costs!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I don't have a problem with a time limit on during the day, to ensure there is an adequate turnover at busy times, but I feel this should only apply to maybe 6pm? After that it's free until say 9am in the morning.

Alternatively the signs could just be reworded to say "Maximum stay of 2 hours unless vehicle is occupied" which lets tired drivers know they don't have to pay.

And the longest sleep you will get is if you catnap on the motorway--

the signs are obvious - wriggling around - opening the window and getting cold with no effect - chainsmoking if you smoke -

before you get to this state - get off , have a nap and live

it is more and more common nowdays to have limited waiting schemes in supermarket car parks close to motorways, as well as motorway services

from the trips i have been on this year the car parks are sign posted for a maximium free stay, i am not to sure about the truck stop though, never had reason togo into one

anyway IMO the cost of a coffee in a motorway service station will refresh the most tired driver

And the quality of the food will keep you awake with rampant indigestion

I wasn't aware of any legislation about parking on private land, do you have a link to it?

So why do you assume that MSA car parks should be the place to do that? If you know you need sleep, then you should plan to break your journey by booking into a hotel. You are hardly going to feel refreshed after three or four hours in a reclined seat in a car park. As you say:



You are putting yourself and others at extreme risk of injury if you think you can cat nap your way to the end of a 400 mile journey. Perhaps you should think about an alternative mode of transport for at least part of your journey?

Sleep related crashes are even more common than you think. Unfortunately, they are extremely difficult to record. Someone who has had a collision as result of one driver sleeping will soon wake up faced with blues and a uniformed officer.

Many drivers, particularly early morning and "just after lunch" suffer from - what are termed - microsleeps. We have all done this - you suddenly realise that you are 3 junctions on than you were previously without any recollection of how you got there. That is extremely dangerous, and at that point, my advice would be to get off the road completely.

Coffee, loud music and open windows have an effect for about 10 minutes, after which the situation with sleepiness becomes worse. I have some research I will point you to on this when I return to work on Monday.

Unfortunately, I feel you are way off the mark with this and I repeat my challenge: what risk assessments have YOU carried out that determines 8 or 10 hour free car parks on motorways will solve sleep related crashes. I suspect you have plucked these numbers from the air with no real concept of the scale of the problem, the causal factors behind it or the potentially scientifically proven solutions. I await your findings with interest.

Milsee --

fact one - those of us from the north of scotland know the problems of long distance driving - we grow up with it .some living in the cushy south can get any where in one/two hours.we realise that after about 10 hours we might need a rest in spite of our ability to drive longer.I would suggest that when you have tried it you return to have another go at paul.
After about ten hours you try and find somewhere to have a rest - go on try it - motels - fleapits etc plenty on the TV, not so many on the road.
Fact two - a decent car /van seat /any space is ok if you're tired enough - i do it at work - regularly. weekends me + about several hundred others sleep /catnap in vans etc between jobs. Get a diesel, turn heating low, get seat in comfy position and it's better than hotel bed.I used to drive London to North of scotland with my sister in an estate - one drove - other kipped in rear - over 15 hour drive.

Oh yes - risk assessment / safety policy --look at http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... ht=admiral

How true. Some colleagues of mine met at Knutsford Services to pool a car to London. As they arrived at the entrance to the service area, they were asked "have you paid?" Clearly these people can spot car poolers a mile away.

Brian

My experience has been that if you are asleep in the car they do not issue a penalty charge. They aslo don't wake youup.

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Former Military Police Officer and accident investigator

There was a report in one of the papers last week that a sleeping motorist had been given a penalty charge for overstaying at an MSA - don't have a URL, someone just mentioned it on another forum.

I suspect if you are employing low-grade minimum wage staff to issue penalty charges, the idea of using a bit of discretion doesn't enter their heads.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Hmm. Well extracted.

I'm not sure what you are saying here but I know you are being deliberately and disappointingly antagonistic. I'm not having a go at anyone; I'm merely challenging what I see to be a rather random view of a subject I have some knowledge of. In fact, I have appeared as an expert witness at public inquiry on this very subject.

Your ability to drive longer? Is this proven? Is this because you are a hardy scot and have different metabolism to the rest of we mere mortals

In fact, there are plenty of well signed hotels from the trunk road network - many have brown tourist type signs pointing the way. They are extremely easy to find. If there are no formal signs, then you'll often find illegal roadside signs directing you to small villages.

You are very much mistaken if you think that curling up in your car seat for 1/2 hour provides you with sufficient rest. I'm just rather glad I was nowhere near you when you did your 15 hour stint at the wheel.

I'm not claiming to know the answer, but I think each of us imposes our own experience on our ideas, and sometimes fail to take into account that everyone is different.

I used to work full time nights, (and did so from choice, not economic necessity). I worked 11 pm to 7.30 am, and then worked part time for a car rental agency recovering or delivering cars.
I was often asked if I felt tired, or was in danger of falling asleep.

No. Never. My sleep pattern consisted of 5 - 6 hours a day, and had done since I can remember. Why people think you should go to bed as soon as you finish nights is beyond me. How many of us finish at 5.00 pm then go home to bed?

Some may well have noticed my nocturnal posting here!! I see others posting late too, so maybe I am not alone in this?

When I go on holiday, I drive through the night from Windermere to the south coast. After working nights for 6 years, I recognise immediately if I am losing "the edge" on my alertness - and take steps to rest - either while my wife drives having slept from setting off, or after a half hour in a MSA. I think the technical term is "power napping" and it works - FOR ME. Maybe it does for Paul too.
I would NOT advocate this as a suitable course of action to anyone else, as their physiology is bound to be different to mine.

IMHO, the worst that can happen to anyone is to have so little time to get to their destination, that they feel obliged to press on instead of stopping for as long as is necessary, and that requires driver education not extended waiting times at MSA's

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!