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Speak for yourself. If you want to know about me, I only actually go to bed a couple of times a week. Four hours in a car is a generous night's sleep.



Offensive rubbish.



No we haven't. It's never happened to me. Actually none of my experiences match the research. Under some conditions my focus and attention actually increases after about three or four hours of continuous driving.



Feel free. I've probably read it.



Perhaps you need to read the first post again and note that I'm asking questions. I *suspect* a problem and I'm investigating.

You appear to have jumped to a series of erroneous conclusions.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I remember one time I found myself getting tired on a motorway and pulling in to a service area. I intended to sleep for as long as it took for me to feel awake. I don't mind sleeping in the car, it's quite comfortable if you fold back the passenger seat, and I had no reason to get home quickly because I would be going to bed straight away anyway. Because of the 2 hour limit I actually found it very hard to get to sleep because of the worry of getting a fine. I ended up continuing after probably 30-45 minutes when I realised that sleep wasn't going to happen.
The next time this happened I remembered that my mobile phone had an alarm clock
I got some good sleep and felt much better that time.

You can get tired for any reason and some of us don't like to idea of staying in a hotel. Why pay for a bed when I've got a perfectly good car to sleep in? Anyway if someone is driving a camper van all they need is somewhere to stop.

The journey I do occasionally is for work. I travel from Dorset to Central London, do some work and come back again. They happen almost at random with about 1 week notice usually timed for when enough on-site work has built-up to warrant me being there for a day and I have some stuff to take with me. I leave early (well, early for me...) and plan on being there until about 6:00 or a bit later to avoid traffic. Sometimes problems occur and I have to work longer to fix them. Sometimes I forget to eat enough (oops). Sometimes there are traffic jams. Because it is usually a 2-3 hour journey I have no plans to stay anywhere in the middle.

Just a couple of examples of why someone might get tired even though they planned things and why they might not want to stay in a hotel.

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Andrew.

Every lorry driver in this country and europe can legally cover around 500 miles a day (assuming constant 56mph over 9 hours) with only a 45 minute rest. If you're well rested at the start of the journey then there's no problem at all in 5 hour stints. If driving tires you THAT much then you're doing something wrong.



Generally the truck stop is free for 2 hours (plenty to accomodate the mandetory 45 minute stop) but you have to pay for stops longer than that. I don't think its very much (less than £10) and you usually get a free meal voucher too. It depents on the company operating the service area.

In my own experience, I also know when I'm starting to lose it. I did ONCE drive where I was so tired that I ws having difficulty keeping my eyes open, and apart from it being the single most stupid thing I've ever done, it did teech me what it feels like so I can redognise when I need to stop before I become dangerous.

Stopping for an hour or so and kipping in the drivers seat does make a massive difference - I've done it loads of times. We go to Poole almost every weekend in the summer with our boat in tow - thats about a 3 hour drive on the main route. Its quite normal to set off at 5am and not leave Poole til 9pm, by which time we're both wasted. The usual plan is to get to the A34 and pull into a layby for an hour or 2 and sleep before continuing home.

As for the original post - you usually can pay for a longer stop if you need it, but most people have plenty of time for a pee break and a snack. I do agree with Capri that over night parking aught to be free, but if its the case that they wont ticket if someones in the car then that seems fair enough.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I can only speak from personal expierence, but I found 3 hours sleep was plenty to allow me to continue safely on with my journey. Coming back from France the boat was late into Dover, scuppering my plans to get back that night. Therefore I decided to get past London and then have a few hours sleep in the car. Sleeping in the car made sense, at least I didn't have to faff around trying to find my wallet - and not to mention all the luggage we'd have left on display. Just over 3 hours later we set off and I found myself wide-awake well able to cope with the demands of driving. Funnily enough I've found that I've sometimes felt worse after a night's sleep of 8 hours.

I didn't pay, and got no ticket - but would have sent a very strongly worded letter if they were callous enough to give me one seeing as though there were only about 10 cars in the whole car park.

Milsee -at risk of upsetting you , which i have no desire to - read my post - 15 hours shared , not solo , but shared.
Like others in here i have worked nights( both in factories and on the road) long enough to recognise the signs, the ones i gave are the extreme ones - at that stage you need to get off and have a kip.
It's not down to any nationalistic streak

Actually, I haven't jumped to any conclusions. Far from it.

You did not use the word "suspect" in your original post. Indeed the whole tone was that someone in Government has it wrong and it is up to you "to sort it out". You have come to a conclusion before seeking the facts; is this not something you campaign long and hard against?

You did, however, jump to a set of dodgy conclusions based on no evidence whatsoever. I repeat my challenge for the third time - provide your risk assessment that demonstrates that 8 or 10 hours free parking at MSAs overcomes sleep related accidents.

At this point, I suspect you are devoid of evidence or fact and are losing credibility.

Dismissing my comment with such a "been there, read it" post is unhelpful and arrogant. Your "offensive nonsense" comment is without basis and, quite simply, silly.

Have had a ticket at one of these service areas, about three and a half years ago, had worked a long day investigating a fatality on site, police HSE all present and didn't get anything to eat, decided to grab a bite at msa took bloody ages to get served, after eventiually getting something to eat got back to the car feeling tired so put the seat back and slept 45 minutes later was woken by someone ticketing me. Showed reciepts for food (if you can call it that, how can charge so much for such s*!t). Was told not my problem write in.

Took several letters including threats of going to national press, they eventually relented.

Not impressed, on the A120 in Essex there is a rest area - just parking spots and public loos. We could with a lot more !!

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I think the short free parking times at MSA's are unreasonable, and should be extended to maybe 4-5 hours.

But anyone undertaking a long car journey has to accept the responsibility of staying alert throughout it. I don't honestly think the parking restrictions at MSAs are a significant cause of sleep-related accidents.

The point has been made about business car journeys that they need to be regarded as part of work - so it is not acceptable for someone to work from 9 till 6 or whatever and then be expected to drive 250 miles.

You can never be hard and fast about these things, but I would say that anyone doing more than 9 hours' driving (excluding breaks) in a 24-hour period is asking for trouble.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

How on earth did you get that from: "Surely this bonkers scheme must cause more sleepy drivers to try and battle on?"



Your comprehension has failed you comprehensively.

The first post in this thread represents the start of an investigation into a probable safety problem. That's why it says: "But first I must uncover the entire background." I am far from ready to start a campaign or publish a risk assessment.

If you insist on continuing with offensive and inaccurate comments please do so by email.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

millsee,

Some further thoughts in an attempt to defuse this misunderstanding...

1) The state of driver sleepiness research is absolutely appalling. I have no confidence that we're anywhere near understanding the problem fully. A particular case in point is the relationship between speed and arousal:
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/arousal.html . However we do know that 30% of serious crashes on some motorway sections are 'sleep related'.

2) There can be no 'magic formula' solution to driver sleepiness. Taking a break after 2 hours driving may be reasonable and good practice for most, but it's well within the range of normal human behaviours for some to be safe driving for 6 hours (on occasion) and some to become dangerously sleepy after an hour (also on occasion). It follows that drivers must recognise the approach of sleepiness and take appropriate steps. I'm firmly convinced that management of the problem entirely depends on individual drivers making individual and appropriate decisions.

3) The science supports this view and suggests strongly that drivers get a good hour's warning of dangerous levels of sleepiness. That's my experience also.

4) I'm unconvinced by the claims that 20 minutes rest is an appropriate recommendation. I think the amount of sleep required will vary between 10 minutes and 8 hours depending on individual and circumstances. Individuals must recognise and respect their own sleep requirements.

5) I personally have been very well served by napping in the driver's seat on literally hundreds of occasions. I've never come anywhere close to falling asleep while driving. I've never experienced the microsleep effect.

6) It's insufficient to decide in advance if you have enough energy to complete a planned long journey. Many drivers experience a sleepy phase in the afternoon, and must adapt. It's even worse to pre-book a hotel to break a long journey because you may become sleepy before you arrive.

7) I'm quite certain that napping is effectively and safely practiced by a significant proportion of drivers. It follows that any factor that denies (or tends to deny) the group of safe nappers the chance to nap is likely to be dangerous. This logically and reasonably includes to threatening notices at motorway services regarding parking for over 2 hours.

Now let's hear your case.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I hate paying for parking, however I think it needs a charge to prevent commuters clogging up the services. Imagine you came off the motorway tired only to find it was completely full?

At the grand age of 40, something I find that I get 3 hours alertness from every hour of nap.
However I am very aware that must change person to person and also with age. At 20 I worked 7 days a week and stayed up till 2am and still got to work at 7:30.

I can see both sides of this discussion; Different people need different amounts of sleep. Tired drivers are a serious issue. But should the motorway service areas provide unlimited parking for free for anyone who chooses to sleep or commute or car share whilst paying very high rent and rates for that land?

Could they issue vouchers for a proper snooze to be used the same day at least 100 miles from where they were picked up?


I think extending the free period to 4 hours would help.
There are very few people who drive from Inverness to Southampton and maybe paying £5 in addition to the £40 fuel bill is part of the journey cost?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

During the day I can certainly agree that there needs to be limits(or charges) to prevent car poolers from robbing spaces from those who do need a break, but how many spaces are sleeping drivers going to take up? Not very many I would have thought.

At night though it's a different matter, most MSA are very quiet and their is ample parking available, so what's the harm in letting sleeping drivers rest? It strikes me as very dangerous to try and restict people doing that. I would have thought with the campaigns "Think! Don't drive tired" that it would have been positively encouraged.

In an ideal world drivers should plan their jounneys better and book into hotels. But sometimes the best made plans go wrong, boats can be late, traffic can be heavy, meetings can drag on etc etc. Also I'm sure some people may struggle to justify the cost of booking into a Travelodge at £50 a night when all they want it a 3 hours kip - me included. Imagine that was a family who needed 2 rooms - £100? I hope nobody thinks I am putting money ahead of safety - I'm not - personally I can sleep very well in the car - with the seat pushed back and fully reclined it's quite comftable.

My case is extremely simple.

MSAs are not, and should be used as either:
- destinations in their own right, for use as car share nodes as some have suggested
- unofficial snooze centres.

Two hours to stop for a bite to eat and a drink is ample. To suggest that you should extend MSA parking times to "8 or 10 hours" without any evidence to suggest what impact that would have on road safety is extremely dangerous. To do what you have suggested would endanger lives, in implying that nodding off for a few hours halfway through a journey would leave everyone nice and refreshed for a day's driving ahead. It wouldn't

The microsleep effect does exist, whether you like it or not. It is also impossible to predict how many accidents have been caused by sleepiness for the reasons I have stated earlier.

Your latest post plucks some more figures out of the air. Can I ask where you are getting these figures from?

Also, how have you jumped to the fact there is a "probable" safety problem that can be solved by drivers kipping in their cars? Research? Evidence?

Surely if the DfT are urging motorists to take regular breaks, then some of those breaks should be taken at MSAs? And may involve a bit of a snooze? Many drivers, for example, may feel tired in the late afternoon and feel the need of a bit of kip. Should they not do that at MSAs? If drivers on the motorway shouldn't have a snooze at MSA's, then where should they do it?

I had some sympathy for your argument, but you have lost it now.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I too disagree with millsee as these service ares are definatly official snooze areas. it is the unoficial shopping malls and gambling arcades that should not be there. They should be a place for the loo and a coffee, meal or break from driving.

[rant]Some how they have turned into noisy stressful places where your trip to the loo is turned into a horrendous labyrinth route to the back of the building past loads of shops selling tat and past coffee shops where there is no caffeine to keep you awake[/rant]

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Yes, the loos should always be right at the front, so you don't have to wade through all the chav tat

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I cannot see any possible reason to prevent MSAs being used by drivers that need a rest. In fact I believe that they should be official snooze centres.



I certainly didn't say 'everyone'. But sleepy drivers need to be ENCOURAGED to rest. It's simply obvious.



I don't doubt that the microsleep effect exists. I simply said I have not personally experienced it.



The thrust of the post is that this is another aspect of driving that CANNOT be governed by numbers or by norms. The 20 minutes and 2 hour figures are published by the DfT.



I don't need research to tell you unequivocally that I have entirely avoided the risk of driving when sleepy by napping as required.

Perhaps you need to declare your interest in the subject?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The DfT advice to take a break every two hours falls short of saying you should take a nap.
The signs say "TIREDNESS KILLS" without specifying "SLEEPINESS". Their take on this shouild be clarified, since thay imply the MSA is the answer, by the location of the signs.

High levels of concentration from say driving in fog can elevate tiredness, and a 30 minute nap CAN relieve it (if not in every case).

MSA's are the ideal place to nap if you are on a long journey. When I drive from my home to a south coast ferry port, I might be surprised at the time taken (as I was last time by an unexpected motorway closure) to complete the journey.
I DONT want to be tied to booking into a motel in the middle of the night, when I dont know where the nearest one is for example near Warwick, so I simply pull into Warwick services and nap! Some services obviously anticipate this with showers and wash facilities provided. None I have visited have ever hounded me out after two hours, despite the notices!

Drinking coffee (or caffeine drinks) to stay alert seems dangerous to me - it must surely only stave off the symtoms of tiredness. What if the caffeine "high" wears off between MSA's and leaves the driver even more tired than he originally thought he (or she) was?
There can be no substitute for alertness other than the real thing, not some chemically induced substitute - after all we would not condone using "speed" as a driving aid would we?

I have no problem with the idea of microsleeps - I dont suppose anyone who dozes off at the wheel (and there are many according to DfT figures) intends to sleep deeply - their body meerly betrays them with a microsleep. For all those who crash, there must be many more who escape unharmed because the rumble strip (or the wife) wakes them up.
I have not experienced them however, as driver or passenger, nor seen any mention of them before this thread in respect of motoring.
My son is at present being treated for a sleep related disorder, so I HAVE looked around the internet for advice relating to this.
I for one would be interested in Milsees experience as an expert witness in this field, out of personal interest, and a pointer to how it might help my son. (He has been prescribed melatonin, which I believe is not yet approved in this country. Consequently we have had to wait 3 months for the prescription to be approved and supplied).

Has ANYONE here actually been a passenger in a vehicle where the driver has fallen asleep?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I have. I'd forgotten about it until you mentioned it. As a student I used to have a weekend-cum-holiday job which involved some commuting (the job was stocktaking). One driver fell asleep after a hectic week on the way home. We were on country roads in or around the peak district intending to head south to Kent, and it was dark. I spotted it from the back - his head lolled. I shouted - he woke up, and the two in the front (both partners in the business) swapped places about 2 minutes later after a brief conversation. I guess this was bravado, and I was tired myself and remember very little detail.

I also am very interested in this subject, and would really like to hear Millsee's background - including any interest - in this area, having likely microslept a lot more than I care to admit to myself many years ago (but I don't do it now, I am more responsible).

bump......







I third that!

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign