Safe Speed Forums

DeMolay,

I think I can spot a couple of mistakes in your technique. Have you taken any advanced training? Do any of the following phrases mean anything to you (in this exact context):

"rule of the triangle"?
"overtaking position"?
"point of committment"?

Teaching overtaking techniques is hard enough one to one on the road, but by email or web it could be deadly. Are you familiar with Roadcraft?

I hesitate to go much further for fear of giving misunderstood advice.

I'm not at all sure where to go with this one, and I'm very aware that we're simply not taught overtaking at all unless we take advanced lessons. My apologies for not knowing how to help.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi Paul.

FYI, I am very familiar with all of those things as I am a fully qualified Fire Brigade EFAD driver who has seen things in RTAs (Road Traffice Accidents) that would make you consider selling your car and taking up cycling.

Thank you for your consideration!

_________________
cheers,
DM

The purpose was a brain calibration check, so, I agree it's retrospective.

It first came up for me 15 or more years ago when I was driven by someone whose "calibration had drifted". (in my opinion! ) I've been puzzling about it on and off ever since. I regard it as an unsolved problem, and I hate unsolved problems.



The objective judgement for many manouvers is: "did I cause another vehicle to alter course or speed?". But that doesn't really work in this case.

Certainly overtaking errors are a significant cause of accidents - and big accidents at that. I'm not sure of the proportion that involve oncoming vehicles - probably less than a quarter - It's usually junctions and conflicts with the overtakee.

My interest is that of demanding the solution to all unsolved problems. Like I said, it's been niggling me for years. I'm quite certain the postulated 2 second rule is better than nothing, but that's about as far as it goes.

[edited to fix broken quoting]

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

My sincere apologies! There's just not enough information in email systems to be certain sometimes.

I did a few quick calculations about time to pass and closing speed with the motorbike incident described and guessed that it would not have been possible to be sure about passing the four when the committment to passing the first was made.

I recommend a separate point of committent for each vehicle you are planning to overtake.

I also would never recommend overtaking without having first identified a specific return gap.

Using these rules, I virtually never have to "dive in and brake", although I accept in unusual circimstances it can happen.

Phew. where were we?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well, I have not received 'advanced training'. However, I would understand "overtaking position" to mean a position somewhat closer than a normal following distance to the offside of the vehicle ahead (or to the nearside if approaching a LH bend) which optimises forward visibility but will permit the overtake to be completed in minimum distance/time.

"Point of commitment" is, I imagine, the point at which having pulled out to overtake, one makes the final decsion to complete it rather than drop back behind.

So what's "rule of the triangle"?

I'm distinctly nervous about trying to teach overtaking in this forum - we never know who might be reading and misunderstanding what's written. Here's a page from Roadcraft:



One of the golden rules about advanced overtaking is that one does not committ to overtaking until one has fully pulled out and had a good view past the offside of the target vehicle. Committment is made from an offside position. (the "point of committment")

Some advanced instructors describe this as the "rule of the triangle" with the base of the triangle representing pulling out to an offside position without adjusting speed.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well, without the benefit of "advanced training" I think I described all three steps almost exactly, without naming the "triangle".

It's pretty much common sense.

Yep. I think almost all advanced driving ends up as being common sense.

It's fairly unusual to find someone not specifically trained in overtaking who will actually pull out fully to the offside for a period of observation without accelerating. If you figured that out for yourself, my warmest congratulations.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Before I jump in with my comments, I'd just like to point out that I am a relative newcomer to the roads (I'm still 17!), but would like to regard myself as a sensible driver, just inexperienced.

My point is this - I drive a Vauxhall Corsa with a 1.2l engine, and should I find myself 'trapped' behind someone plodding along at 40 on a good derestricted A road, I don't see how I could safely use the technique you outline here. I appreciate how it works, but attempting to use the technique you describe would result in a very slow overtake, as my car's acceleration leaves a lot to be desired! What I would tend to do in these circumstances, is either resign myself to wait until the next bit of dual carriageway, OR, if it's a particularly straight/wide bit of road:-

Adopt a position close to the centre of the road, but a little further behind than the 'overtaking position' you describe - somewhere I can see the oncoming road, though.
Check once again that the road is clear, and begin to accelerate and thus close up the gap to the car in front. As I do this, indicate right and begin to move out past the centre line.
At this point I am going faster than the car I am overtaking, but not yet parallel to it. This is the stage I would consider my 'point of committment' - if I suddenly see a hazard which means I need to abort the overtake, I can brake and slot back in behind the car.
If it's clear, continue accelerating and pass the car, then move back in after I have created a suitable gap.

I have only ever really done this a few times, as I'm constantly aware that it takes forever for my car to accelerate to anything once past about 45/50. It just seems to me that to overtake in the way you describe here would mean staying in the other carriageway for a rather lengthy period of time, which can surely only be a dangerous thing.

Thoughts and comments (advice!) appreciated

_________________
-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Mike's post reminds me of my early driving experiences. 1400 Corsa? I started with a tired 1159cc Viva! Overtakes had to be planned miles in advance, ringing the engine room for extra coal etc etc.

The plus side of all this is (I think) that low powered cars force you to plan much further ahead, and this holds you in good stead for later.

I now drive a car with nearly 200bhp, but I still like to plan an overtake from way back, and like you I tend to try and "come out early" for a look, with some speed differential already built up.

The downside is that when you judge your "abort" braking distance you need to guard against making the assumption that the driver in front will continue at his present speed. The worst case is that a hazard appears in front causing him to brake and you to abort the overtake, such that you find yourself braking into a closing gap!

The plus side is that your earlier speed differential speeds the whole maneuvre up and reduces the distance during which you are "committed" to being on the wrong side of the road alongside the other car. Also, this is a good way of passing "erratic" drivers who speed up as you overtake. This way you start the "drag race" with an advantage that he is unlikely to pull back.

But the most important thing of all is thinking. It's like the steering debate - it's not so much the technique that matters, as much as the questioning process that evolves it. If you are wondering about these things it demonstrates that you are analysing and assessing your driving, and looking for ways to improve it, and that is probably the most important skill of all.

1200 actually, but the effect is the same!



Heh, yeah these [idiots, ahem] are both inconsiderate and dangerous..



Heh, let's hope so. As I said, I'd regard myself as a well-meaning and sensible driver, but I wouldn't want to say either 'safe' or 'good' until I have a lot more experience.

_________________
-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

I'm 20 years further down the track, but I'd still hesitate before applying those adjectives! It's a continual process, so I prefer to think in terms of "safer" and "better"

Ah yes that's a better way of putting it ^_^

_________________
-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

SafeSpeed wrote:

I'm distinctly nervous about trying to teach overtaking in this forum - we never know who might be reading and misunderstanding what's written. Here's a page from Roadcraft:



That picture looks very worrying to me. I have over 50 years experience driving a high powered wet fish van. Getting the scaley stuff to the marble while still fresh is paramount as I'm sure you know well.

Personally I pull out earlier than shown in the picture. So many drivers today hardly use their mirrors so the longer you are in the overtake position the better.

I also rely on the 'Eqyptian brake' keep the triple airhorns covered as drivers seem to veer about.

A friendly 5 seconds of Greensleeves also makes them realise another consignment of Prawns and Spratts is on it's way through to the slab.

In the sixties we were even allowed to use magenta coloured flashing lights to speed the products of Grimbsy Docks Southward. Ahh the good old days. Sadly after a major wet fish slip involving a conger eel shipment in Milton Keynes an end was put to this discretionary use of the magenta flashers.


Regards Les Chalards
Master of Fishmongery (retr.)

Remember the racing car driver that swerved to avoid a child and fell out of bed?

_________________
If there are any fellow gene splicers out there, please check out my website and we can swop stories. http://www.leschalards.o-f.com/

Les, are you for real or were you created by Peter Tinniswood?

Les, are you for real or were you created by Peter Tinniswood?

I am very real you can see a picture of me on my website. Peter Tinniswood?, didn't he have a butchers shop in Shoreditch, ran a gambling den in the back of the shop in a false walk in freezer. Got 3 years when they caught him. Finally sold up and forgot to pay the taxman and now lives in sem-iretirement in Northern Cyprus so I am told. Now there was a man that liked his halibut!

All the Best
Les Chalards
master of Fishmongery (retr.)

_________________
If there are any fellow gene splicers out there, please check out my website and we can swop stories. http://www.leschalards.o-f.com/

Paul,

u know i never claim to be an excelent driver, just joe average.

two seconds seems tight to me. This is the gap to leave behind a car going in the same direction ! I would want more for one heading in my direction . call it survival !

surely the only answer is experience, the calculation the brain does for distance, road conditions and on coming speed, is remarkable.

As for the cars them selves, they are all different, so maybe impossible to lay down a rule. Despite having a powerful car, it is a lazy man's car ie automatic. There is a lag when i hit the floor, but not everytime ! Dear old brain has to handle that as well.


rgds
Bill

Bear in mind that two seconds takes into account the speed differential - a two second gap to an approaching car is a LOT bigger in terms of distance than a two second gap to the car in front.

As for my own preference, I'm very cautious (ever conscious of the half hour it takes to get from 60-70! ), so I'd probably say a ten second gap or more! Only straight roads for me, please...

_________________
-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

why didnt I go to school as well.. thanks for that !!
rgds
bill

Bear in mind that two seconds takes into account the speed differential - a two second gap to an approaching car is a LOT bigger in terms of distance than a two second gap to the car in front.

I recently sold my AJS 16M 350 which I bought in 1951, a very nice Sunbeam S8 and sidecar that was my fathers and I used on my honeymoon in 1958 when we visited the Benelux countries. I also sold a 1952 Bown Deluxe 98cc which the wife bought during the Suez crisis.


I was itching for another bike - what have I to lose at my age? So I had a little lookee in Autotrader, but no good, then bumped into Big Dave Stellman in the pub who told me he had a mate banged up on a trumped up charge , drugs bust or summfing. Seems he had a hot little nmber he needed unloading so I stumped up the readies and am now the proud owner of a 3,000 mile Yamahaha R one.


I was warm yesterday so I took Mabel down to the coast, that bike has a rocket attached! Thirsty though. I took it easy but Mabel has put on weight since her thyroid trouble and her heaving drinking bouts. I had trouble keeping the front end down on a bit of throttle. Not like my AJS at all.


Anyhow after a liquid lunch and a bag of chips we decided to return to Chez Nous. Well that bike has a mind of its own I fair flew down the sea front, front wheel aiming skyward, mabel was sick and a young constable pulled us at the lights. Seems it not good to have the front wheel in the air - well I could have told the kid that!

I was so embarrased I was not in my van so had no merchandise to make the boy happy. Mabel is not happy and I have to show my credentials at the police station within a week. I am ringing the Navy Gravy monday to see if they still have my licence. I'm a bit worried. I love the bike though we were home within an hour it used to take three hours on my AJ.

Even the youngsters think the bike is cool. It wasn't warm though, I think I'll get a crash helmet, Mabel was warm enough with her head scarf.

Yamkintastic!

Regards Les Chalards
Master of Fishmongery (retr.)

_________________
If there are any fellow gene splicers out there, please check out my website and we can swop stories. http://www.leschalards.o-f.com/