Safe Speed Forums

For the past 5 years or so HGV drivers have been under special attack from the speed cameras. The speed limit for vehicles over 7.5 tonnes in gross design mass is 40 mph, as it has been for many years, on all single carriageway roads regardless of the state and layout of the road - unless of course a lower limit is signed.

Some cameras are able to distinguish between cars and HGVs and can take pictures of offending lorries, say doing 50 mph, and not cars at the same speed.

As an HGV driver myself I rarely exceed the 40 mph limit but do admit, as most of my colleagues would do, to doing so where conditions and known lack of cameras allow.

Before the cameras, HGVs were exceeding the 40 mph limit on a regular basis and as they are capable of 56 mph traffic flow benefited. Mostly nowadays, as you may have experienced, 40 mph is the rule as we all want to keep our licences - it's also our livelihood.

Sadly I am sure, though without definite statistics, this is a major and unresearched safety problem indirectly caused by the so called safety cameras. Car drivers naturally become frustrated after following a truck for many miles at 35 to 40 and some will then start to take risks and overtake when it just isn't safe to do so. The result being head on crashes at up to 100 mph closing speeds.

Now I do not advocate a blanket lifting of the HGV 40 mph limit. The fact is that in as much as it is too low for some roads it is also too fast for others. Therefore perhaps some should be 30, some 40 and some 50 mph.

The frustration of car drivers is further enhanced by the fact that many, and I believe the majority do not know about the 40 limit for HGVs on single carriageways. To illustrate this I have recently been involved in removing "How well am I driving" stickers from the rears of vehicles owned by a major UK logistics company. The reason for the removal of the stickers was due to the simple fact that by far the majority of calls received to the freephone number on them were to complain that the vehicle was only doing 40 mph!

I drive vehicles of up to 44 tonnes and thankfully, with the systems on board modern trucks, I know I can stop as easily if not easier that my friends old Rover 25 can. Yes I have tested that theory.

THE BIG QUESTIONS -
Could it be that this is part of the reason why casualty rates are not falling as a result of speed cameras?
Is anyone checking into how many crashes happen due to the frustrated overtaker - possibly not as chances are that the offender won't survive the crash!
Is there any review in progress or planned on HGV limits.

I'm very worried about that speed limit and the bonkers enforcement of it too. See: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/hgv40.html

Please register and join the debate. It's free and I think you'll like it here.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Omegaman, as a fellow Truck driver, I also welcome you to the site, by registering, you will find that this site is Truck friendly, unlike some I could mention.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

I think this comes down to education. In my opinion, these frustrated car drivers need to look at their own behaviour and just calm down. If they do risky overtakes they have only themselves to blame if they are that stupid - the HGV driver does not force them to overtake. The HGV was there first so they should follow behind. Anyway, on almost all journeys travelling at 40mph for a while isn't really going to affect their journey time signigicantly.

Regarding the "How well am I driving" stickers, I would leave them on and at least these impatient drivers could be educated about the speed limits when they phone the hotline. To phone up complaining of a slow driver is plain arrogant.

It's the same on the motorway when HGV drivers talk about the speed limiters causing them to tailgate all the time. It's just not true. Duelling lorries with one overtaking 1mph faster than the other may well be annoying to some, but it is certainly not dangerous. I often do a 150 mile journey and frankly, being stuck behind a duelling lorry is no big deal to me. Maybe I lose a couple of minutes but I'd rather everyone stay safe to be honest. OK, the HGVs probably needn't do these overtakes, but if they do, then let's allow them to complete it safely. Personallly, if a HGV overtakes me, I no longer flash them back in to my lane. I would love to be courteous, but I would prefer that they stay in the next lane a little longer. This way they don't steal my safe stopping distance.

All in all, a fixed square metal box cannot 'cause' an accident. It's all about mentality. I really don't understand why speed cameras aren't hidden from view. If they were, then you would have to drive below the speed limit all of the time, not just when you pass the camera. Fewer cameras would be needed that way too.

I would like to see driving simulators used properly. I can think of loads of situations where the vast majority of drivers could do with some training, and be able to test out "what if" scenarios in a safe environment.

Yes they should. But in the real world if we cause frustration in drivers more of them will make bad judgements under that pressure. we need policies that work with real human limitations. Perfect drivers would be nice, but it just isn't reality.

And anyway, never forget, any crash that results from frustrated overtaking is likely to involve one or more innocent drivers.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Whilst duelling lorries itself is not dangerous, being in the frustrated queue behind has additional risks. Certainly not the truck drivers fault. Impatient lane 2 drivers who rather than indicate and negotiate a space. Just whang on an indicator and barge out to lane 3. The resulting ripple of deceleration can travel many cars back.

It does call for better driving on all sides, If two lorries have been duelling for over a mile the driver on the inside should lift off the gas for a moment to allow the overtaker to complete his overtake.

And car/van drivers should have respect for each other and not drive so close.

So far. touch wood, my six sense has allways cut in and when I have detected a tense situation in lane three and moved in to lane two only to see them all go crunch a mile later

I still fail to see why a HGV should be limited to 56 when they can travel at 60 within the law

Any way.... welcome

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

I think it is actually. They have no lateral escape space. If one has a tyre failure or there's an exceptional gust of wind they can be tangled and losing control in no time flat.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I agree with Paul. If the motorway is busy and I come across an elephant race, if lane 3 is only marginally faster, I often subconsciously provide a "rolling roadblock" in Lane 3 until there is ample room in front of the lorries for me to get past very briskly. Sorry to all those who I must annnoy with this technique of self-preservation.

I bet you do it consciously... I know I do.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

As Paul has explained, it is dangerous in many circumstances. It also shows a severe lack of consideration for other road users, which is a vital factor in producing safe roads.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

By far the most dangerous place to be on a motorway is alongside another vehicle, for many reasons - not least being that you're very much closer to that vehicle than to any other vehicle.

I've seen many a car become totally destabilised by what amounts to a relatively slight lateral collision - and quite a few have lost control completely.
And it's much, much worse if the other vehicle is a HGV, because you're very likely to end up crushed.

The less time you spend in that situation the less the danger - which is why healthy speed differentials are essential.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

And the most dangerous place to be alongside other vehicles is near sliproads. I suspend overtaking when near sliproads (unless I have a full clear lane 'buffer'). It's very helpful.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I used to make a concsious effort, but I actually believe that this "feature" of my driving is now in lizard area, to the extent that when a passenger I get inwardly a little on edge when the driver follows the remaining lane 3 sheep through, usually too close anyway, their lizard brain having worked the other way, closing the gap in a vein attempt to get past the lorry quicker, but there's somehing in the way!

Interesting. Having pondered this for a few hours, I'm quite sure it's conscious for me. Yet, equally, I'm sure that there's a subconscious feeling of discomfort when I'm passegenger in a car that does get 'boxed in' in L3.

For me I'd say the risk assessment parts are subconscious while there's clearly also a conscious planning and reacting part.

Furthermore, I don't think my lizard brain does any planning, at all, ever.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Absolutely - that is the definition of it I guess - in which case I'm probably planning it with minimal attention rather than lizard braining it. Definitions again!

I think it proves that motoway fencing is not up to standard as we have sheep & lizards in lane three and elephants racing in lanes 1 & 2

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

So we're establishing that we're 'driving' on at least three mental levels. Which is highly interesting because the usual assumption is two.

Conscious: planning, deciding etc (learn in classroom and by deduction)
Subconscious: visual search, risk assessment etc (learn by experience)
Lizard: controls, reactions etc (learn by repetition)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The more I think about it, the more I think that is the case.

Analogous is when I am working things out (in my field) at work. Sometimes I need to refer to text books - even if I have used the method a few times in the past. Othjer times, things come very naturally to me, even if I rarely deploy the techniques, yet others are lizard brain - it just happens (like reaching for the coffee cup. I know that's lizard brain because it is only when it's empty that I lift my engrossed head from the work

This observation has profound implications for speed cameras and speed enforcement.

Setting an appropriate speed according the conditions is clearly driven by the risk assessments that are taking place at the subconscious level.

Observing speed limits can only take place at the conscious level. Speed limit information cannot be processed at the subconscious level. (I'm sure of this, but I'm not entirely sure why. I guess it needs discussion.)

This has consequences:

1) Less conscious time is available for planning and decisions.
2) Now we have seen how safe speed behaviour is driven by subconscious risk assessments we can see clearly why drivers are so resistant to speed limit messages. I suppose this fits in very well with: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/why.html - but I think the real world mechanisms just became clearer.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I have also observed the "lizard" function in the dangerous mode. Where the eyes see a camera van and the feet hit the brakes without asking the brain or eyes
what speed you are doing?
what is the speed limit?
is there a car behind me?

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code