Safe Speed Forums

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/4400866.stm

Police expert disputes speed fine

A police video expert who has been given a ticket for driving too fast in Wrexham claims that speed guns are "inaccurate and unreliable".

Lee Tracey, 80, is asking North Wales Police for a copy of the video evidence so that he can challenge the booking.

Mr Tracey, a forensic imaging consultant from Oswestry, is hoping an organisation will take up the case.

North Wales Police said they had "complete confidence" in their officers' ability to use the cameras.

Although well past retirement age, Mr Tracey is still used as a consultant by West Midlands Police.

The pensioner claims he was "just meandering" on a Saturday afternoon shopping trip to Wrexham when he was booked last month for allegedly travelling at 39 miles an hour in a 30 mile per hour zone.

He has since been sent an official letter outlining the police offer of a £60 fine and three penalty points on his licence, but has refused to settle.

"If I was over the limit, I'd put my hands up immediately, but I don't think I was," he said.

But while challenging the reliability of hand-held laser guns, he said he had complete confidence in the accuracy of static speed cameras.

"If you're caught by one of them, then you're done and you might as well accept it and pay up," he said.

"I could point one at a wall and make it show what speed that wall is doing," he said.

"I could show it travelling at 40 miles and hour or even 100 miles an hour.

Effective use

"This is known to the engineering world, but the courts aren't interested because the purpose of these machines is to make to money, not to cut speeding."

Mr Tracey says that most drivers do not bother to challenge the evidence because of the cost involved, but he would like a test case.

"I'd like to take one of these hand-held cameras into court and show a judge, sitting on the bench, that he's doing 80 miles an hour."

Mr Tracey said he had asked North Wales Police to provide video evidence to support the case against him, but they had replied that they were not obliged to do so.

Chief Superintendent Geraint Anwyl, from the operational support division at North Wales Police, said officers were trained in the effective use of these devices.

"I have every confidence in their ability to record the speeds of moving vehicles.

"However, as this matter is currently awaiting court proceedings, it would be inappropriate to comment further."

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I thought that under the rules of the "discovery" phase of a contested trial, it is mandatory for the prosecution to reveal any evidence it has. Maybe they've changed the rules since I was a law student, wouldn't surprise me under the present regime.

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

Paul, please let us know the outcome. I was done for 35, and - like him - I could have sworn that I was sticking to the speed limit. But then neither I nor he will have a record of precisely how fast we were going at various points along a road, will we?

Good luck to him. I hope he wins - but I suspect he won't. And if he loses, that's just more ammunition for the Brunstrom spin machine.

Brian

The "LAW" is now being re written by ex soliciters - and overseen by a part time judge to see if she can make money out of it.

Why don’t they just put dustbins by the side of the road and tell people they have to throw £60.00 in when they pass it, and stamp your licence with 3 points as proof of receipt.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

The LTI 20/20 has been banned in the US, hasn't it?

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

You are correct. The 1996 Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act rules any party, including the police, who wishes to rely on evidence at a Court hearing must disclose the content of that evidence, whether written statement, photographic evidence or other, to their opponent. Paragraph 8 Section 23 of the 1991 RTA adds:

Nothing in subsection (1) or (6) above makes a document admissible as evidence in proceedings for an offence unless a copy of it has, not less than seven days before the hearing or trial, been served on the person charged with the offence; and nothing in those subsections makes a document admissible as evidence of anything other than the matters shown on a record produced by a prescribed device if that person, not less than three days before the hearing or trial or within such further time as the court may in special circumstances allow, serves a notice on the prosecutor requiring attendance at the hearing or trial of the person who signed the document.

Brunstrom’s Blackshirts were recently caught using bent practices to enhance the throughput of their dirty trade. As the saying goes; a leopard never changes its spots.

I think at least one state, possibly more have banned it as it is unreliable.



I fought my case, accused of doing 70 in a 60. I won, but it was very hard work and in the end I needed help from a solicitor to take on some unreasonable court practice.

They will twist and turn like you would not believe to get their conviction. Being innocent doesn't seem to matter too much to them either, they are blind to obvious innocence, money is the only talker.

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If you're right, did your heels in
If you're wrong, admit it!

Sink the scameraships
Give us back our Police Force

So, our expert has complete confidence in GATSOs......
How about the electronics engineer flashed by a GATSO who KNEW he hadn't been speeding, so he set built a device which measures the time between the flashes (accurate to something like 1/10,000 of a second).
He went and timed the GATSOs in his area, and 80% had a flash interval of 0.65 seconds, not the required 0.50 seconds -an increase of 30%.This means that a car actually travelling at 35mph will appear, looking at the calibration marks, to have been travelling at 33 + 30% = 46.5 mph.
And the Gatso which was triggered by the roller shutter back door of a van doing 15 mph........

Now whether or not this is MCN looking to sell more , but in this weeks issue an "expert" is about to defendhimself on a speeding charge on a bike against a LTI based charge and is quoted as saying that they are innacurate on cars too.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I've just come up with the answer - have a tachograph retrofitted to your vehicle.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

The LTI appears to "trump" tacho evidence. There is a court case coming up this month based on a lorry driver with a tacho saying the vehicle was going slower than alleged.

Gareth

Seem to remember a case involving a maestro doing 250mph, and a school bus ( with tacho ) doing 88mph

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

typically they'll send you your evidence (but rarely the video) on the 7th day prior to the hearing.

I'd say 80% of throw outs are due to prosecutors failing to serve evidence. The problem is - Clerks often push defendants to review the evidence on the day - which I think should be a sackable offence.

So that undermines half the point of a tacho chart. If tachos are inaccurate then, why do we have to have them inspected every 2 years? Bloody madness. Basically we have no defence at all then?

I'd be very interested to hear the outcome of the case.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

If Tachos are so inaccurate why have Tachos at all? These CPS’s want it both ways, they don’t like it if you ask for evidence from them, and they don’t like it if you provide evidence to prove your innocence. A load of codswallop if you ask me.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Tachos don't just measure speed, but you're right Dixie. If it weren't so serious it would be laughable.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.