Safe Speed Forums

We constantly hear the call for speed cameras outside schools, or to be moved to be outside schools. We hear the call for 20 mph or 15 mph limits outside schools either all the time or at the critical times. We have drivers saying they always slow near schools and some authorities banning parking near schools. We hear some say that cameras should only be outside schools and stricter manned police patrol activity should happen near schools.
However, what we never seem to hear or see are the actual and accurate statistics for the numbers of children killed or seriously injured near schools and for those efigures to be compared with the figs for children KSI'd elsewhere.
Do such figures exist or are accidents near schools actually very rare?

I’d also like to know how many where during school hours and were any of them caused by people dropping off children at the time of the accidents.

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I do know that when this issue was raised on the defunct CSCP forum the response given was that there was a low incidence of problems at schools, which is why they preferred to deploy their scameras on the M6 instead.

Perhaps the fact that schools represent such a clear and obvious hazard results in people taking extra care, though I have to say I see some pretty scary things when I drop my two off in a morning...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
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The next question would be 'what percentage of those accidents to children outside schools were due:
1. To drivers exceeding the speed limit,
2. To drivers driving excessively fast for the conditions,
3. To a lack of concentration and care.

I only raised this topic as I can't be the only one who is tired of all the 'put cameras outside schools and reduce the limit to 15 mph'.
That may be necessary, or it may not. Where are the detailed statistics. Maybe 'BRAKE' have that information. Shall we ask them?

I see scary incidents outside the Lakes School nearly every week - but usually at least one of the parties is alert enough to avoid an actual collision, due to the location.

From memory, most incidents I recall are not usually within the 100 yards either side of schools, but further away, but whilst travelling to or from school. The dodgy crossing in Windermere is within just a few yards of the No Through road which leads to the school itself, AND a health centre and sheltered housing scheme.
It's also within sight of the police station!

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The scary incidents are more to do with dodgy parking practices more than anything else. Kids are not running out of shool into the roadways and you really could not drive at any speed at 8.15 am to 9 a.m and perhaps the lunch break and chucking out time anyway - due to parental pck ups, school buses and lolly ladies anyway. WQell- that's my experienceof the schools my own children attend and the opinion of the teachers in this family - mine and my wife's.

The danger zones are about one mile/two miles eash way beyond the school gates when htey get off the school bus or walked part of the way home and then start to hurry home a bit more. Basically - case still of being COAST aware at all times.

I do know, though, a a doctor friend and colleague of mine up in Carlisle who did lose his girl fairly near to t the school gates. Happened in his presence too But he accepts a tragic accident and no speed camera or abnormally low speed limit is ever going to stop acidents or even prevent deaths. He did shout to her but she just did not hear him - his words - she just seemed "oblivious to the bus and all warning calls at the time"

He dropped his daughter off. She saw her best friend across the road and crossed ... just as the school bus set off from the stop. Low impact speed but it killed her.

So - not undue care as such on part of the bus driver - but a very sad accident where the girl simply became oblivious to the danger around her As far as am aware - no speed camera is outside the school - not necessary as the accident was just that - a tragic accident. Such things happen no matter how hard we try to minimise. My colleague has come to terms with the accidental loss of his girl, no blame or anger - and she is remembered with very fond and happy memories of her too short life.

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The scary incidents are more to do with dodgy parking practices more than anything else. Kids are not running out of shool into the roadways and you really could not drive at any speed at 8.15 am to 9 a.m and perhaps the lunch break and chucking out time anyway - due to parental pck ups, school buses and lolly ladies anyway. WQell- that's my experienceof the schools my own children attend and the opinion of the teachers in this family - mine and my wife's.

The danger zones are about one mile/two miles eash way beyond the school gates when htey get off the school bus or walked part of the way home and then start to hurry home a bit more. Basically - case still of being COAST aware at all times.

I do know, though, a a doctor friend and colleague of mine up in Carlisle who did lose his girl fairly near to t the school gates. Happened in his presence too But he accepts a tragic accident and no speed camera or abnormally low speed limit is ever going to stop acidents or even prevent deaths. He did shout to her but she just did not hear him - his words - she just seemed "oblivious to the bus and all warning calls at the time"

He dropped his daughter off. She saw her best friend across the road and crossed ... just as the school bus set off from the stop. Low impact speed but it killed her.

So - not undue care as such on part of the bus driver - but a very sad accident where the girl simply became oblivious to the danger around her As far as am aware - no speed camera is outside the school - not necessary as the accident was just that - a tragic accident. Such things happen no matter how hard we try to minimise. My colleague has come to terms with the accidental loss of his girl, no blame or anger - and she is remembered with very fond and happy memories of her too short life.[/quote]

Absolutely............would you like to coem and try and expalin this to people I deal with all the time. After a child is killed on a road , the first thought is always 'slow speed down', ' get another camera put up', and I do not see this as the answer at all. I am affraid to say though that my opinion does nothing more than to get me into trouble within my group, should I voice it.

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belladonna
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Belladonna - shall see if I can get colleague to contact your group as an interested party. He's based in Carlisle.

Interesting comment in the Indy today about the Andrew Walker case - namely that those who scream for revenge and vengeance are usually those who are untouched by such mindblowingly appalling events in their lives - and concluded that rising above, coming to terms without anger and blame is actually more helpful to the grieving individual than screaming for hangings, and taking revenge on the whole of society for the atrocities and mistakes of a handful.


A parallel could be drawn with those who demand a speed camera or see speed as the sole cause each time an accidental collision occurs. Each collision is unique to its own prevalent conditions in any case.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
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We use our smilies on YOU today
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It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

i have a couple of sites outside schools (this is the only time i use the 10% + 2) rule, i will always park up at the start / end of school day for around a hour hour and a half, 1 school has a bus service the other 2 the kids are dropped off by parents, on average i would say 2/3 drivers exceeding the limit

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Just to clarify, is that 2 or 3 per visit, or 2 out of every 3?

no i would say that 2 / 3 vehicles in excess of 37mph s the average on visting the 3 sites

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I am extremly concerned for the "public" calling for limits outside all schools. This could mean every side of a school playing field, every School, day and night, term time and holliday.

There are shool sites that are leathal when the little darlings are escaping. there are schools where the kids hang around out of hours. but there are thousands that return to normal streets apart from the frenzied hour.

How would you feel getting a couple of speeding tickets at 11:30 pm for traveling past a school on a sunday night?

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

and thats why i go to these sites at the start / end of the day with the reduced threshold

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Well in that case I reckon either:

1) Your ability to estimate or measure speed is hopeless, or
2) You are enforcing in a totally ridiculous place, such as a duel carriageway which happens to be within 2 miles of a school,

because I have never been past a school at chucking out time where the huge traffic density and gridlock allows any sort of progress at all.

That really means before 8 am und after 4.30 pm then - as ist only time you could manage in say a 30 mph area. But let's not forget schools are tucked down side streets und in residentials.

There are some on main roads und on 40 mph roads und I know of two on a 60 mph dual carriageway und of one on a dual near a motorway slip road. Not one of these schools has lost any one child or had absences to any RTA/C. Und Cousin Jessika's school is on a 40 mph trunk and her only problems appear to be mumpty parking in the side street running along one corner.

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and thats where i work i have one school on a council estate, the others are on the main road though the town / village

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But he is covering the site for an hour or more when the period where children are actually near the road will be more like 10 to 20 minutes.

I expect the speeding incidents occure outside that window.

Now on my way home I can pass a large Secondary School - the road is abut three lanes wide.
We used to get the appearance of a van , hiding in the undergrowth, about 100+ yards from the school gates --i even saw it on a Sunday at 7.30 am ---( possibly in case some kids watch was wrong and they thought that school was open on a Sunday??)
The road was "re-engineered" to provide the residents opposite with parking bays marked out ( reducing the road to 2 cars wide) .Then, large parking bays were provided for the school buses - making the road at chucking out time one car wide.Traffic speed at that time about 5 mph.
After this ( and spending ££££ on a bay for the van ) they decided to install a Gatso, ( also about 100 yards +from the school gates), meaning that a car could hit a kid at 50, slow down to 30 and not get pinged - very road safety .
The rest of the 24 hours - it's a major through run for cars. But it's enforced with a camera for 24 hours - but as i said at the times that safety is paramount - max speed is 5 mph, and road is down to one lane, both sides blocked by parked vehicles , with "little darlings" appearing from behind busses / parked cars etc.

Nice propaganda exercise for the scamerati - playing again on the "kill kids " votes

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