Safe Speed Forums

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

So, I'm slow. It takes time for new ideas to sink in and be considered properly. I am beginning the assimilate the point that folks such as Rigpig and Paul (SS) are making. Seems it's about timing - so if I go back to a point quite some time before the intended manoevre and decide then that there may be a case for not indicating, the things I do between that time and the point where the manoevre actually takes place may possibly cause me to handle the whole thing in a different way from how I might have done if I was always intending to indicate. Gottit, finally.

Now, if I went in to every situation using the process above, then having done all that, kidded myself back into indicating, would I be doing something safer or not? Worth considering. Ahh, but does knowing I'm going to do that invalidate the new process? Brain meltdown!

If you come around in 24 hours that will be about 3,500 times faster than me.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi Paul,
You actually calculated that? Man, you're worse than me
I've not come round to the idea yet, I've understood some of the reasoning and I'm still working on it. This could take t>24 hours and some experimental runs too.

Precisely!

Also, consider that in your new approach to planning you will be consciously asking yourself "Will I need to indicate here?" and organising your observation around that. But if then, when the answer comes back as a definitive "No" you do the exact opposite and indicate anyway, not only do you invalidate the whole mental process, but you should also come to question your logic in doing so. To make a logical decision to do x but then actually do y is perverse.

In our early days as drivers we indicate as much for reassurance as anything, to tell ourselves that we have "covered all the bases". In other words there will always be a degree of doubt as to the absolute completeness of our observation. One of the aims of becoming an advanced driver is to strive to remove that doubt. So the surer we become about the quality of our observation the more ridiculous it becomes to indicate to nobody.

I suppose that's why it came to Paul in a flash of inspiration one day. Perhaps that was the day the quality of his observation reached that critical threshold.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

No not at all. I admit I did use an expression relating to a lack of perspicacity, but for that I apologise.
<Note to self (again)> Don't engage in a rapid exchange of posts without stopping and thinking about what you are writing. Let it settle for a bit if necessary

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Hi JT, thank you for that and for your previous post.
That's the odd thing, I'm not new to this; I've been riding bikes on the road for over 25 years and driving cars for 22, but that doesn't mean I can't learn, if I choose to learn of course. Daft bit is, while I'm older and (weirdly) more receptive to ideas once they're thought through, I can feel I'm starting to lose just a little of the edge on the reaction and guts stuff, which is a bit sad.
Hopefully better thinking will compensate for that sufficiently to get me through a few more decades!
Still need more time to work on this whole thing and balance it with personal experience. I certainly don't think this discussion will be detrimental to my safety on the road.

Actually when I said I was slow it wasn't in connection to your posts at all, it was more of a comment to myself. But thank you for apologising for something you didn't do all the same
Regarding perspicacity on my part, I do think you're right.

whilst I understand the arguement for non-use of indicators, I prefer to use mine unless the road really is deserted. The first person to suggest it to me was a police advanced driving instructor who told me on the north circular road that when moving from l3 to l2 indicators were not necessary as 1) "it as an expected move" and 2) "traffic behind me may speed up in anticipation of me moving aside, which if I aborted the move may cause an accident"

I explained to her that traffic on the north circular has more in common with brands hatch than idealistic motorway conditions and I'd rather signal every move in such conditions. And like people have said advanced driver training can only assist in making you better- it won't make you perfect. there's still that nutcase motorcyclist that will try to overtake on the inside from your blind spot as soon as you're 12 inches in front of the car you've passed, or that pedestrian hidden behind a road sign about to cross the left turn your making. And plenty more.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

10 years / 1 day isn't hard to calculate...

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think the moment of inspiration was slower than that and was triggered by feeling foolish on that deserted roundabout. It was the feeling of foolishness that triggered a whole series of thoughts in the weeks that followed.

I don't believe that observation thresholds had anything to do with it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Who was it asked "Where's Basingwerk got to?"?

Yep. The more you think about it the better it gets. (With thanks to Kate Bush).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I think with this debate it is too easy to confuse those who thoughtlessly don't indcate, and those who thoughtfully don't indicate. I've never been driven by someone who has advanced training, so it's difficult to imagine exactly the situations where an advanced driver would not indicate. Ok so the deserted motorway or rural road is obvious, but when it comes to urban or semi-urban areas it's diffiult for me to understand on what occasions an indicator could be missed. Perhaps it's very few. I always think in an urban setting it's too easy to have missed someone, maybe a pedestrian further up that while it would not have had a safety implication, it has left then standing at the side of the road like a lemmon. That may suggest a failure of observation, but equally the pedestrian may have been partially hidden in dark clothing and at somepoint I am sure even an advanced driver will miss something like that.

I am also uneasy with the suggestion that if you do indicate when nothing is around, it shows a lack of observation. Why does it? Surely it is still possible to observe to the same level, but to indicate in case there was someone obscured that you could have missed through no fault of your own.

Perhaps I'm biased since I've been left at the side of the road waiting to cross or nearly run over crossing a side road when someone turns in without indicating. Perhaps it because I'm walking to work at 5.30am and because everythings deserted some drivers assume nobody can benefit. And yes, that's even with a full length hi-viz coat However, I certainly am NOT suggesting those drivers are in any way advanced, they are just the thoughtless non-indicators.

I am a little concerned here about this indicating thing. If I indicate and somebody acts on that indication but doesn't realise that my intentions were not what they thought doesn't that create a danger.

I don't think the solution is not to indicate but not only do you have to be sure of when and how you indicate but how that indication might be interpretated.

I hope that came out the way I intended.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

I have recently sat (and passed) the IAM test. The only thing I was picked up on during the test was indicating too much. It was not seen as a big negative, only a minor. At the end of the day, the examiner said that it did no harm to indicate unnecessarily, but I think Paul's point is an excellent one. It acts as a trigger to improve observation. If you always do maximum observation and still indicate unnecessarily, and you're more comfortable with that, then fine. If you indicate automatically, and don't observe properly, then this is far more dangerous than not indicating in response to good observation. Of course, not observing and not indicating is worse still, because you're not letting anyone know you might be about to do something stupid! However, even if you properly observe, you can still miss something, so indicating unnecessarily is not a bad thing.

My observer told me right at the start "This is your car, you are the driver and you are responsible for all your actions in this car. If I tell, ask or suggest you do something and you are not happy with it, don't do it." I suggest that if you have an observer, or even a passenger who tells you to do something that you disagree with, then you say this to them, because I think it is an excellent point. BTW my observer has since told me that he is not in total agreement with this particular policy, and tends to indicate more often than strictly necessary.

It seems a shame that you have given up the opportunity to improve your driving with the IAM, because you disagree with something so relatively minor. Perhaps your driving is already excellent, but mine improved no end as a result of doing this course, even though I didn't agree with absolutely everything.

Hmmm. I'm with Curmudgeon on this one. Rightly or wrongly, e.g. a motorcyclist is approaching from behind at excessive speed. You may do all your observations but fail to see the approaching M/C and change lane or direction, just as the M/C goes to over/undertake you.

Conversely, I agree with RigPig, SS et al, as the indicating should be 'planned' and as a result of your observation, and not automatic.

But I still indicate even if I'm positive there is no-one around to benefit from my indication, just in case.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

I think this is a very difficult and complicated issue. Having read the original post on this topic that was posted a couple of weeks ago (if memory serves) I've will admit that I've started to think to myself 'do I need to signal here?'. I can't think of a single instance in my day to day driving where I can honestly say 'there is nothing around / no danger of anything being around so I won't signal'. This is down to the layout of the roads I use and the fact that a good proportion of my regular routes are in town meaning that there is the potential for hidden hazards or vehicles approaching from areas which cannot be seen.

It's been said by several people on this thread that unless you are 100% sure no-one will benifit from your signal then you should signal anyway. Surely the fact that you have observed the need to signal, or observed the fact that you are in a situation where you CANNOT be 100% sure, rather than just saying 'I haven't got the confidence in my observation skills so I'll signal anyway' shows an advanced level of observation in the first place? Surely this is part and parcel of the IAM 'package'?

Like I said, I can't think of a genuine instance recently where I've been able to be 100% sure of the need not to signal. Having said that I do feel uncomfortable about not signalling even where it might be appropriate or safe. I think the only instance I can think of where I would be comfortable not signalling would be on an empty motorway where I can see that there are no hazards or other vehicles for a very large distance. Maybe I will have a 'revalation' one day but I know that it won't be anywhere on my regular routes.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.