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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 14:22 
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basingwerk wrote:
Oscar wrote:
A little margin up over is in order, as manufacturers must not supply a vehicle, which has a speedo that reads low


AFAIK, even modern speedos are not absolute instruments, and are subject to calibration errors. I reckon these should be quite small, the main areas of error probably coming from wheel circumference change (read tyre size and wear) and clock inaccuracies (assuming they use a clock or capacitor circuit to integrate the wheel rev readings, which, for example, may be read by sensor from a toothed wheel or other similar set-up). 10% seems a little high, but I get the idea. Clocks (can be) accurate, so it comes down to change in tyre circumference. Rough calculations suggest to me a tolerance band of around 6% in the maximum variation. If this were offset on a worst-case basis so that the speedo reads high, you would, worst case, be doing around 28 mph when your speedo says 30 mph. These are very rough calcualtions, of course, but this seems a respectable speed to me, quite close to the absolute limit, so this is no reason for the Pratnerships to allow 10%, because the speedo inaccuracy over stating the speed, thus working in the drivers favour anyway.

On the other had, I wonder what tolerance margins are published for the camera measurement instruments themselves?


:lol: Basingwerk mate - we agree that they are Prat nerships then.

They can set tolerance margins on scams - but with talivans - can depend on mood and target set by paymasters. We have not guarantee as to fair play settings - and suspicions are further aroused by the hullaballoo over getting to see the evidence. When they make mistakes - and they do - it is up to victim to find out and challenge - which is made impossible - M4 fiasco last year is a case in point. This only came to light when a couple of victims challenged because they remembered exactly where they were on the road at the time. :roll: But this was not given huge highlights in media and there are still number of unaware convicted motorists who were legal all the time.

Both Jags are 3mph out - both under actual speedo - across speed range - according to useful gadgets in the car. The Stag :roll: one of first manufactured - speedo is not at all accurate :roll: discrepancy increases to as much as 20% on higher speeds. Unfortunately - a replacement part is like gold dust - which is why that voluptuous vamp only goes out to owners' club meets. She still performs on track :lol: Lovely husky - sultry engine hum ..... No idea exactly how fast she is going - but she can certainly turn in a good performance - and does not blow a gasket (original engine - always been prone to overheat and throw tantrums! :roll: This "cor blimey" car has thrown some strops in her time - but that is another story ....)

The Moggies - one (Wildy's convertible version) - speedo - 10% error margin - above speedo , and the saloon one - :twisted: - same problem as the Stag. Problem - is getting hold of parts - and no guarantee that replacement will be any more accurate than existing part.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 15:10 
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Mad Moggie wrote:
:lol: Basingwerk mate - we agree that they are Prat nerships then.
I caught basingwerk talking about scameras the other day :D . Are we turning him into a petrolhead? Resistance is futile, basingwerk, you will be assimilated. :lol:

Kidding.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 15:21 
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basingwerk wrote:
Oscar wrote:
A little margin up over is in order, as manufacturers must not supply a vehicle, which has a speedo that reads low


AFAIK, even modern speedos are not absolute instruments, and are subject to calibration errors. I reckon these should be quite small, the main areas of error probably coming from wheel circumference change (read tyre size and wear) and clock inaccuracies (assuming they use a clock or capacitor circuit to integrate the wheel rev readings, which, for example, may be read by sensor from a toothed wheel or other similar set-up). 10% seems a little high, but I get the idea. Clocks (can be) accurate, so it comes down to change in tyre circumference. Rough calculations suggest to me a tolerance band of around 6% in the maximum variation. If this were offset on a worst-case basis so that the speedo reads high, you would, worst case, be doing around 28 mph when your speedo says 30 mph. These are very rough calcualtions, of course, but this seems a respectable speed to me, quite close to the absolute limit, so this is no reason for the Pratnerships to allow 10%, because the speedo inaccuracy over stating the speed, thus working in the drivers favour anyway.

On the other had, I wonder what tolerance margins are published for the camera measurement instruments themselves?


[not a direct reply]

We'd probably do more for road safety if we took away speedos rather than tried to fit better ones. WE REALLY don't want a population "driving by numbers". If we really wanted to use technology to help drivers to choose an appropriate speed we'd have to find a way of projecting the current stopping distance onto the road ahead. Now that WOULD be interesting...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 09:05 
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Gatsobait wrote:
I think the old ACPO 10% + 2 margin is voluntary now.


Incorrect, due to our speedo's and the cameras risk of error, it still stands. It is the prosecuting standard.

10% + 2 mph

Anything below is not prosecuted.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:47 
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bmwk12 wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
I think the old ACPO 10% + 2 margin is voluntary now.


Incorrect, due to our speedo's and the cameras risk of error, it still stands. It is the prosecuting standard.

10% + 2 mph

Anything below is not prosecuted.
Wanna bet? Come down to Thames Valley and go through a 30mph speed trap at 31mph. They will ping you. If you don't have points they send you on the Drive Tech course. If you already have points they'll give you some more. Straight from the horse's mouth, mate - I can show you the e-mails. Effectively this is zero tolerance by the back door, though I should add that they told me this only applies in 30 zones. Elsewhere Thames Valley are still using 10%+2, but they sort of act like this is doing us all a favour and they don't have to.

I doubt they are interested in speedo errors as they'll be over reads. It's never struck me as a very good excuse as they are not allowed to under read, so an indicated 30mph will never be over the limit. Camera error... well, they'd like us all to think that there's no such thing, wouldn't they. Cameras are infallible. :wink: Round dangly things, I agree, but I don't see the partnerships coming out and saying that a margin is necessary because the cameras can get it wrong. That'd be suicide for them.

Either 10%+2 has been made a guideline in recent years (which is what I'd heard after the car-haters complained that too many people were going to get off), or it remains the prosecution threshold and Thames Valley, and possibly others, are an exception due to trialling the speed awareness course. But the important thing to remember is that if you don't qualify for the course, or refuse to attend, they will go back to the FPN every time, yes, even for 31mph.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 16:50 
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I drove through one on the A452 collector road yesterday (Birmingham), in a 50 limit at a shade under 50 and it flashed me. I was looking right at it, and there was a slight flash from the edge of the magenta lens. Also the rader/laser detector went "chip".
I've spent hours trawling the 'net and as far as i can find out, they are calibrated by driving a calibrated speedo through, and are allowed +/-2mph.
The calibrated speedo is also allowed +/-2mph, so there is an error of 4mph overall.

(the calibrated speedo could read 50, but the car is doing 48, and the truvelo can still read 52 and it will pass)

Inicidently, my speedo reads 50 at 49 on a GPS.

If I get an NIP I will be fighting it, as I was definitely not over 50.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 17:35 
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John WB wrote:
I get 1mph increments and I never need to look down at the readout on the dash at all.


But is it accurate to 1mph, or does it just read out more detail than it actually has?

If it works like the normal speedo, by measuring time between wheel revolutions, it depends on tyre circumfrence not changing at all, which is an assumption you just can't make. If there are 5 people in the car instead of 1, there will be a bit more weight on the tyres which will compress them more. Temperature could affect them too. It's ludicrous to expect anyone to know their speed to the nearest 3 mph, let alone 1mph, unless they have a GPS system or doppler-measuring device.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 01:08 
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Zamzara wrote:
John WB wrote:
I get 1mph increments and I never need to look down at the readout on the dash at all.


But is it accurate to 1mph, or does it just read out more detail than it actually has?

If it works like the normal speedo, by measuring time between wheel revolutions, it depends on tyre circumfrence not changing at all, which is an assumption you just can't make. If there are 5 people in the car instead of 1, there will be a bit more weight on the tyres which will compress them more. Temperature could affect them too. It's ludicrous to expect anyone to know their speed to the nearest 3 mph, let alone 1mph, unless they have a GPS system or doppler-measuring device.


I wouldn't expect it to be accurate to 1mph, for the reasons you state. Mind you, it gave an identical readout to the display on those signs that give your speed, but this was at 30mph.

I think a lot of the inaccuracy in analogue dial speedometers is in the electronics to drive the magnetic pointer. At higher speeds, the accuracy tails off conisderably.

Oh and Facade, nothing came of this in the end :D , so you may be ok.
I'm sure I've seen them flash at people under the limit before, unless it was a reflection :? . In the end, I believe it's up to the person sending you the NIP to decide.

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