Safe Speed Forums

I've been turning it over and over in my mind again in the last hour and I think it comes down to knowledge of risk. In this exact case, knowledge of the risk of ice. Now, arguing on a balance of probabilities...

* The motorist didn't know of the risk of ice because he was driving at ~50mph

* The cyclists didn't know of the risk of ice because they were riding at all

* The police knew of the ice, and the risk it posed because they had called in a gritter by their own admission

I cannot find anyone except the Police who could reasonably have forseen a dangerous event taking place.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

fair enough but starting with "they shouldn't have been riding" (and I don't mean because of the ice, with that I'd agree if it was a known risk) is not particularly helpful. As I've pointed out, the last time 4 people were killed in a single vehicle accident these same people didn't start with "well, if they'd all been travelling in different cars then this wouldn't have happened".

There is no us and them. (repeat 100 times! )

We have to admit to the possibility that a careful risk assessment might have made either to car driver or the cyclists or both to decide that conditions were too dangerous to justify the trip.

In, err, dangerous weather, the best solution for safety is sometimes not to travel at all. My best guess on this occasion is that no one had any fore knowledge of the dangerous conditions - but that is only a guess.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

edited

Nor me.

That's an absolute horrendous and unlikely ammount of understeer.

Badly corrected lift-off oversteer, possibly with a complete 360deg spin before hitting the wall seems more likely.



Agreed.

I just HAVE to include this worrying response to the accident from a teacher colleague of my wife, yesterday when discussing this accident. "It serves them right. Where I live is a cycle route and they are always getting in my way."
From a 50 year-old female where none of the family cycle. When told that they were hit by a car coming from the opposite direction she shut up.

As a cyclist I have always felt that some drivers feel like this and this, for me, confirms it.

I predict that the response from those in authority to this accident will be to introduce legislation prohibiting cyclists from travelling other than singly "for their own protection".

How utterly miserable. I'm sure that there are dimensions in social issues, but a key factor is bad policy. If they make the roads into an obstacle course, put drivers under increasing pressures, of course drivers are going to become increasingly sensitized to obstacles.

But it doesn't stop there. Dreams of 'modal shift' foster policies that set road user groups against one another.

And of course we're not getting the right messages about care, responsibility, equality and consideration at all these days.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That is my belief as well. To me it seems inevitable that the Coroner will make the observation that if the cyclists had been travelling singly the effects of the accident would have been greatly mitigated. As I said earlier I'm not "anti cyclist" but if we try to view the whole thing dispassionately then it seems an inescapable fact that this option was open to them and would almost certainly have reduced the death toll.

My personal opinion is that if cyclists wish to ride in this manner then as long as they are fully aware of the increased risk then that is their free choice, as it doesn't really place any other road user at increased risk (assuming they don't continue the practice where the road is too narrow). Unfortunately, under the current political climate the freedom to take risk is no longer considered as reasonable, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some change come about as a result of this tragedy.

As a further aside to back up what "A Cyclist" says, virtually everyone I bumped into on Sunday who mentioned this accident was of the opinion that it served the cyclists right for always riding like idiots (or words to that effect). I don't subscribe to that view generally - whilst I have seen plenty of evidence to support it I completely accept that it is a "few bad apples" that cause the trouble - but I think this is indicative of the general feeling towards cycle road racing, and it will need to work hard on its image if it is to survive. I speak as one involved in the sport of road rallying, which has faced (and continues to face) similar PR issues.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Undeniably there are some, and probably not even a minority.

The question is what do we do about it?

Cycle routes/paths send out completely the wrong signals, and by removing cycles from the road drivers get less accustomed to them being there.

Cycle priority systems may help cyclists but they reinforce the us and them situation.

I'll look at issuing a PR. It's a start.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I have driven over 1 million miles in my life. In all weather conditions, snow, ice, floods, fog. I have found myself on black ice only once.

There were no signs there was any ice on the road (it looked dry)

The car behaved like a hovercraft without a rudder, totaly out of control.

I was lucky no one else was nearby.

Sometimes these things just happen.

I was driving in Canada in December. The daytime temperature was -10 dopping to -22 at night. The traffic was flowing at about 5 mph below normal road speeds but more spaced out between cars. Just goes to show how things can work when the country is equipped to cope with the conditions.

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Speed camera policy Kills

In my youth I was a sunday cycle club rider. These type of cyclists are a far cry from the urban intimidating law braking, lone cyclists. We went out any weather and the route was planned and others would meet up along the route. This type of cyclist look after each other and ride as a pack for visabillity.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that the toyota corrolla of that age did not have anti lock brakes on the lower cost models. It wasn't even avaiulable as an option. Anti lock brakes would have given the driver more options.

I owned one from new and did 70,000 miles , It was a very easy, well ballanced car. If it was icy it would be hard to put power on the road without wheel spinning. I found front wheel drive cars tell you much earlier that the road is slipery.

I do believe it was a simple accident.
It is very hard to get the Highways authorities to do anything in 6 months let alone 1 hour.
There is no training for Ice, mud or snow driving.
Anti lock brakes should have been fitted as standard to all new cars 10 years ago but no one has forced mass car manufacturers to do it. (even now?)

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

edited

I believe it's a culture / education / upbringing thing. I also believe that it should AND CAN change for the better. While I generally prefer the UK road experience (e.g. plenty of roundabouts), I think that the Dutch have got a far superior mentality as far as this issue is concerned. Pushbikes will always be more vulnerable, so the system should provide an adequate framework for protecting them:
- education: responsible attitudes need to be actively encouraged AT SCHOOL as well as at home to the youth... now they cycle, tomorrow they drive
- infrastructure: proper and intelligently implemented cyclepaths need to be provided in town centres, by schools etc.
- culture: as Paul says, it's not "us" and "them". Those could be our kids cycling in front. Cyclists, in turn, must respect vehicle drivers and road rules etc.

Having said the above, it appears to me that the type of road where this accident occured would probably not have a cycle lane even in the Netherlands. And the accident was not caused in any way by any disrespect for the cycling community (the driver was not reacting to the bikes when he/she lost control).
I have seen police motorbikes accompany groups of professional cyclists here. Not sure if they do this for just regular training though.

Indeed, a sad and tragic accident, IMO.

Oh, and regarding changing the laws following this accident...
NO, THERE ARE TOO MANY OVER-NANNYING LAWS ALREADY.

Treat the population intelligently, police them intelligently, legislate intelligently.

Advise, maybe. Legislative power - no thanks!.

at the risk of sounding like a stuck record. This option is available to most people driving as well. Why aren't you suggesting that motor vehicles are limited to only carrying the driver? Using the same logic that would result in an even greater reduction in the death toll.


thank you.

that's done to control and protect road races - amateur as well.

edited

I haven't tried on proper black ice (living so far south) but on frosy white ice roads they are 3 times as efective as panic breaking.

I compare the corrola 1.3 that I had with the yaris 1.3 and I was amazed how fast I could stop. It wont stop you breaking away on a corner, true. but this man collided with a verge and then across a road. I believe from the impact with the verge he had all 4 wheels locked.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

right, so there are never any multiple fatality accidents involving motor vehicles. Ever. Nope, none at all.


<bites tongue> because they aren't RACING