Safe Speed Forums

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Well, only really high-profile road races such as the Tour of Britain. Most road races just use individuals as marshals. I've done it a couple of times to help friends out - stopping the traffic with a red flag etc but one has no legal jurisdiction. You rely on public goodwill which you generally get.
Across the Channel, France is a cyclist's paradise. It might be interesting to discuss why French drivers are so courteous towards cyclists and why arranging for roads to be closed for cycle races or to get police escorts for stage races is so easy.
On another similar subject - time trials. These take place on public roads at quiet times but still in the presence of traffic - there are courses on the A19 and A1 near here. The only major problems arise at roundabouts where the competitors don't want to slow down and lose time so some are reckless in their riding. Personally I've never fancied doing a TT but lots do.

the surrey league users motorcycles as well - I believe they're all police or ex-police. The race has to have police approval as well so ignoring marshalls' directions won't look too good if you cause an accident.

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Driving on ice - when I was a lad you got plenty of practice of driving on ice (and this was in Bucks, Herts, Oxon etc not up here) and learnt how to control a skid and how not to get into one in the first place. Though I did have an interesting experience with a frozen-food HGV in a frozen car park in Berkhamsted once. Pirouetted a couple of times but only damaged the lorry.

Even up here in the frozen north it is almost impossible these winters to find ice bad enough to lose control in cars of today unless you were to provoke it or be really stupid. Not so difficult on a bike, mind - I've got off and walked down the verge before now as I don't want a broken arm or leg, thank you.

Not true. My black ice episode was on the A19.

The point with black ice is that it is..
1) Totaly invisible. The road looks normal. no white stuff
2) Totaly frictionless. It is like floating on air. Brakes, steering do NOTHING. ABS does not work at all.

I have driven on ice and snow over several bad winters over the last 27 years all over the UK including Northern Scotland. I know how to recover from a skid on normal ice and snow. This is not the same.

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Speed camera policy Kills

As I said earlier, the two situations are not analagous.

Firstly, carrying a passenger in my car does not affect my ability to react to hazards, and secondly when a passenger steps into my car he or she becomes an inextricable part of that unit - it is clearly impossible to separate the two.

When a cyclist joins on a "pack" this is not the same as a passenger stepping into a vehicle, it is analagous to a driver choosing to tailgate another vehicle. The choice remains open to him at any time to open or close the gap between himself and other riders. As such he is making a clear decision to compromise his safety in the interests of making faster progress. That isn't the same as being a passenger in a car, which would be analagous to riding a tandem!

I'd never really stopped to consider it before, but if it is decided that "something needs to be done" then perhaps a sensible compromise would be for riders to set off at 1 minute intervals during normal road training / racing, and only to ride in a pack if they either have police support or a closed road.

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if you think about it it is exactly the same as the pack is operating as a single unit with communication up and down the line.


I know the English love time trials but please...
Don't forget the social aspect of riding in a group - just like talking to your passengers.

While we're at it I think a better compromise would be to only allow cars onto the road at 1 minute intervals. Do you think that's a completely stupid idea? Then why suggest it for any other road user?

If I'm driving a bus and I need to stop in a big hurry I don't have to clear it with all my passengers first, do I?


Firstly, please don't think I'm suggesting that "something needs to be done", I'm not. I'm just mindful of past experiences in motorsport that this might well be the sort of situation your sport comes to face, especially in the aftermath of an incident like last Sunday. You might disagree, but I bet there are already a lot of parents of teenage riders who are viewing their child's participation in cycling with a stronger degree of scrutiny.

It may become incumbent on the "powers that be" within the sport to convince the DfT that they have their house in order and aren't taking avoidable risks. And from where I'm looking riding in packs is an avoidable risk. Now I personally don't have a problem with you taking that risk, but I suspect others might, and it might not be a bad idea to line up some good justifications.

Ok, forget the minute - that was only a suggestion as it is easy to time. How about ten second intervals? So far it seems the only arguments in favour of the "pack" approach are that (a) it makes the bikes go faster (not necessarily the best argument in the current political climate ) and (b) it is more sociable. Can you come up with anything else?

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I don't think the risk from 'external forces' is lessened with the interval scheme.

Suppose the choice is 10 cyclists together or ten cyclists at intervals. Imagine bowling balls rolling across the road. The targets might only be one cyclist, but there are ten times as many targets. I think we're evens on this risk.

Now let's introduce some real traffic. If being overtaken is a hazard, then the risk is increased because each passing vehicle has to do it ten times not once.

Then there's visibility. 10 together will be more visible and less likely to be affected by -say- someone pulling out.

On the other hand there's the risk of becoming entangled with other cyclists. Clearly this risk is much greater for the pack.

On balance, I don't think there's much in it.

Of course 4 killed at once will make much bigger headlines than 4 separate fatal incidents. We have to guard against reactions based on the size of the headline.

[edited because my brain can spell "separate" but for some unaccountable reason my fingers cannot. ]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Thanks Paul - that's getting much more like the dispassionate risk assessment approach I was looking for.

I'm not sure about the "bowling ball" analogy, as there is another issue here, and that is how the group is internally affected by the proximity of the other riders.

And in the particular incident we are talking about, even if there had been 1000 riders, had they been riding at ten second intervals then the odds are that the car could only possibly have hit one of them. In fact the odds are better than that, as (a) the car might have crossed the road during the ten second gap, and (b) the sole rider affected might well have been able to take evasive action.

So in this particular instance it seems we can definitely conclude that if the riders had been employing the alternate strategy used by the other John's club then the casualty count would probably have been one or less. So the "risk assessment" approach is about how that alternate strategy might perhaps increase the risk in other circumstances so as to outweigh that gain.

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the most important one I think is that it is one 'obstacle' for motorists to drive around rather than one every few seconds. You need to see what happens when a pack breaks up to appreciate this - certain motorists just love to dive into non-existant gaps. The addiscombe club run is divided into groups based on ability (or how you're feeling) to try to avoid this happening - hills are the main problem here. They also have a nice slow beginners ride once a month for those new to the sport. Be nice to see you there

Good posts, guys 'n gals, I am proud to be a member of an intelligently run, generally polite and well balanced discussion forum like this.

Despite my earlier posts and the cycling-centred discussions, surely if the goal is effective road safety and casualty reduction, then ICE-MANAGEMENT is the issue and not a group of unfortunate pushbike riders who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? I do not want to belittle the very worthy contributions about mitigating risks in cycle training etc., but the victims here could just as easily have been the Rhyl hiking club out for a brisk winter stroll, or a family group waiting at a bus-stop.

I am interested in the protocols involved in identifying and reacting to icy roads, and think that Paul was very much on the ball in his concerns about these issues, police response etc.

Well said, despite the odd "spat", this discussion compares very well with its equivalent on C+, which has clearly upset some C+ members with its level of vitriol. Keep it up folks!

http://www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/topi ... C_ID=85907

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the loons on c+ are up there.

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Considering that we all seem to have the general idea that this was an isolated patch of ice.
What would have happened had the car not come along, wouldn't the cyclists come off on their own?
OK, there wouldn't have been a number of deaths, but there would have been some nasty injuries, probably requiring a number of ambulances attending the scene.
If the Cyclists hadn't been there, would the car have ended up doing the same skid and slide trick, probably.
I have hit ice both in a car and an Artic, very scary, but I got away with it without injury, and I have also hit ice whilst riding a cycle, I ended up a snotty heap on the floor, OK, not injured as such, but if I had been part of a group as my club often did, well?

the ice patch was waiting there for an accident to happen, unfortunately, things came together as they did.
I also think that the car would have lost it even if only doing 30mph, albeit, not quite as badly, but in the circumstances, with possibly the same or similar tragic outcome.

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