Safe Speed Forums

Sorry, I forgot to turn them in the sub-graphic!

I'm assuming that the car was always travelling (not facing) in the same direction because of it's initial momentum, and the nature of the icy surface.
Somebody described "black ice" really well - it's like being suspended on a cushion of air - and is completely invisible unless you get on your hands and knees.
If you try to steer, all you achieve is at best is to change the attitude of your vehicle in a small way, not it's direction.
I think this example is unusual in the amount of space for the car to travel into BEFORE it hit anything. I can only imagine the feeling of helplessness when the driver saw the cyclists - and theirs too.

The road camber looks to slope off to the right in the picture, but that picture gives such a misleading impression because of the view point, I'm not relying on it!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

my assumption was that the ice was only a small patch causing the initial loss of control.. probably not extending as far as the oposite side of the road.

but who knows.

The photos show an early model of a Toyota Corolla - is it rear-wheel drive?

I'm just asking because rear-wheel drive cars such as BMWs seem to leave the road remarkably easily when driven round a bend too fast for the grip available. Two wheels on the grass or even on a wet white line at the edge of the road seems to either lead to going through the hedge on the nearside or crossing the road out of control.

The aerial shot only shows marks on the verge, not a single mark on the tarmac.
That seems to indicate that there was no grip at any point - but like you say - only the coroners court will reveal the real story.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

or that the car was being driven rather than sliding. The latest cycling weekly has an aerial shot and graphics which match your diagram.

I dont take any comfort in that. Was it the shot with the bikes and car still in place?
I have to admit that my interest was hightened by the outburst on the Guardian pages, and a brief encounter with black ice only last week.

When I was younger, I coated a concrete area with a dustbinfull of water to freeze overnight and make a skid pan. I repeated this over a couple of nights, then drove onto it in a Massey Fergusson tractor - hardly fast, but the experience was extreme... up to the point when I went too far, and ran out of ice while travelling sideways, and nearly toppled over.
Now I have a great deal of respect for tractors, ice, and an understanding of how unnerving and unexpected it can be.

What did you think of the two points of view in the earlier post?
It seems to me that too many widely separated points of view are arising based on emotional feelings rather than facts.
I thought the victims viewpoint showed a great deal of understanding of the situation, and was willing to accept the tragedy without pre-judging.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Firstly - Nice post - Mad Doc

Yep - CW has a leading piece on this and one other tragedy killing another young potential great aged 13 years - hit by a loose lorry wheel when riding out with the British Cyling Squad in Douglas IoM. This youngsTer already had some junior titles notched up and the future of cycling has lost two potential stars with the deaths of James Berry (13) and Tom Harland (14).

CW reports that Conwy Council admit road had been gritted at 18.21 hrs on the Saturday and that residents complained of hearing cars skidding during the night. It had rained heavily overnight - washing away most of the grit and then frozen - leading to the black ice which caused this awful fatal. Gentle bend and 50 mph is indeed "not excessive on this road" in normal conditions. In fact - this being black ice - all would have felt normal to the driver until those rear wheels slipped out. It was sheer worst of bad luck that the cyclists were at that point just then. Just like our relatives were hit - by a very tragic twist of fate - in the wrong place at the wrong time - and I can asuure you that it hurts like a sword twisting inside your gut over and over for a long time. All involved will feel this for a long time to come. I hope belladonna can help out on this one.


The road has been dubbed "one of the most dangerous roads in the country" - but somehow I think this is emotional hype. Like Maurice Boradbent's close pal - the guy would not have taken the route down there if this were so and if this really is the case - then I am surprised Arrive Alive were absent and no cameras. I have driven on this road a few times in the past when taking the kids to Rhyl for a day on the beach donkeys there - and would not say it was a "dangerous road" as such in normal conditions or conditions as they would have appeared that day. Black ice is lethal - you do not see it. White ice or frost - you see a film over the road. . Black ice - invisible.


Police had called for a re-grit following a minor earlier that morning. Am surprised they did not leave a car or place hazard triangles to warn of ice on road though. Standard procedure in our patch...especially if we judged it to require a re-grit. I am sure this will feature very prominently in the enquiry along with the forensic safety checks of the car - tyres, brakes, general mechanics and condition of bikes as well as risk assessment procedures on the part of the club itself. (Under HSE rules - such activities have to follow some kind of risk assessment to cover insurances etc - and I am fairly sure a club such as Rhyl CC will have complied to the letter anyway.)

The magazine has a fitting obituary to Maurice Broadbent - chairman of Rhyl CC and praises his past achievements on track. Maurice took early retirement from his job - quality control manager for a car parts manufacturer.

The magazine cites an article from the IAM mags - advice on driving in icy weather and suggests the driver was still driving too fast for the icy conditions. If the ice was visible and a film was to be seen over the road and thus "felt" in the handling of the car - then yes - definitely not the safe speed for the conditions. In this case - all appeared normal until he hit the "invisble" by all accounts and this places it in Kismet's hands as Wildy would say.


I do disagree with the editorial on this occasion. Or rather - I agree that this tragedy has highlighted the dangers faced by all road users and noit just cyclists on our roads. The editor comments that drivers see horse and not cyclist who are alwyas "invisible"

. In my "keep it say" series in our Cycling section - I stressed and I stress again that a cyclist has to make himself visible - lights, body language and good choice of position will all help.

In this tragic case though...a very very unlucky second places them in the path of a skidding car and not one person in that group nor the driver could have prevented this one. Whatever mistakes were made by the agencies concerned - as Ted says - we need to learn and put it right. Most importantly - we make sure that we pay fitting and dignified tribute to these cyclists in the process.


Very tragic for all concerned and my heart felt feelings go out to them.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
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A Smiley Per post
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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

yes, that's the one.


I think I'm with the British cycling guy in that it seems that the incident could have been avoided - but I guess you could say that about any accident.
I don't know if the driver knew of the danger but the police and the people living on the corner certainly did and nobody did anything to try and prevent it. Did I read the residents saying they'd heard skidding all morning? We've got so many signs and flashing lights warning about non-existant dangers that surely someone could come up with one saying "DANGER, ICE".

The external temperature guage in my car flashes when the temperature falls to 3 degrees. A message also comes on saying "risk of ice" but you only know if you have read the handbook, that 3 degrees means that ice might be present on the ground DESPITE the air reading being higher. If the road on either side of this junction was ice/frost free, and the air temp. was above 3 degrees, or simply not available, then it is easy to understand why several drivers had been taken by surprise.

The cyclists may well have known that the temperature was low enough, or even seen ice elsewhere on the road, but were riding in close formation - despite the risk that if one fell, the others would be unable to avoid them.
This isn't an incident which requires that we apportion blame, it is a set of circumstances from which all should learn - drivers, riders, and the authorities.

The earlier skidding was really just the same accident replayed without the cyclists - and it is a shame that a danger sign of sorts was not deployed.
Several roads in our area have permanent signs stating ICE ON ROAD, or RISK OF ICE - including the A6 over Shap.
Some can be unlocked by police when required - the rest of the time being folded in two.
We also have local farmers who are contracted to grit sections of road near their farms when they find ice - a useful tool, as they are frequently up early and have local knowledge.
Let us hope that the powers that be do their bit.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

So on an icy morning 50mph on a fairly tight bend isn't considered excessive speed according to North Wales police?
Or should we read into that "he wasn't exceeding the speed limit"...


OBVIOUSLY the guy was going too fast for the conditions.

If he wasn't, he wouldn't have lost control.

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Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

When you say icy morning, it was 10.00 am - time enough for most drivers to assume that any problems would have been identified and dealt with.
You are assuming too of course that there was some indication that there was ice on the road prior to his encountering it on this bend.

Since the road had been gritted the night before, it would be normal for this to have had some effect elsewhere along the road, while at this ONE location, circumstances have occured which led to the rain lessening the effect of the salt put down.
My theory is that the junction just prior to the bend - which has a protected lane for vehicles turning right - a wider road, has collected more water over it's area than other parts of the road. Coupled with adverse camber, and less salt to cover the wider expanse of road, this has reduced the amount of salt left to keep ice at bay, because it has been washed away, and the result is an UNEXPECTED encounter with a patch of black ice.

The police assessment at the scene seems to have been that excessive speed (presumably for the prevailing conditions) was UNLIKELY to have been reason enough to accuse the driver of being negligent.
It does not mean that the speed was not excessive, but that the driver could not reasonably have expected it to be so. Yet we have many people with the benefit of seeing the tragic consequences in hindsight, pre-judging the drivers actions, AND the opinion of police who attended the scene.
PLEASE read the comments of one of the survivors, Mel Royles here to see HIS view of the accident.

Obviously from other reports, several other drivers had been taken by surprise that morning, with no deadly consequences until the cyclists came along.
Presumably the cyclists too had not encountered any ice previously, or they would perhaps have been spread out rather than bunched up ready to pile into the lead rider had he slipped off!
Please dont fall into the same trap as Peter King, Chief executive of British Cycling in simply condeming a driver who has had HIS life turned inside out too, has yet to have the chance to express his views, and has YET to be condemned by somebody who was at the scene!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

You do have to feel for the driver as well. I can't begin to imagine what he must be going through.

Particularly when there will be people who instinctively apportion blame.

What a very decent man Mr Royles appears to be - shame more people aren't like him (both drivers and cyclists).

Fair comment-and Mr Royles does appear to be an extraordinarily decent man.

I still think 50mph was an inappropriately high speed there though considering the conditions.

I would assume that the fact there was ONE accident there an hour previously rather than several during the night that the majority of other drivers at the time thought so too-but then again, maybe it was just bad luck, bad road design etc etc. It's not like this country is particularly good at using common sense...

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Smokebelching,CO2 making,child murdering planet raping,granny mugging,politically incorrect globally warming (or is it climate changing now it's getting colder?)thug.
That's what the government want you to believe of me. If they get back in I'm emigrating.

One accident of what category we have no idea, but statement from the residents who live adjacent, stated cars had been skidding all morning - funny how so many drivers were caught by surprise in so short a time .

If you read my posts, you might notice I had an encounter with black ice last week, near my works.
The road LOOKED dry - but the it was like floating on air.
Luckily for me, the road just beyond the bend I was on is so hazardous, I always approach it with caution - but a stranger, or a long curving bend like this one?
I feel certain it could just have easily have been ME for all the reasons I have mentioned.
The reason I keep coming back and posting this, is because if you feel it might not have been YOU under the same conditions, you might just get a shock one day.
When you feel the car sliding away with no traction whatsoever, THAT is black ice, not the sort that just leads to severe understeer, or the back end drifting out.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Last winter I recall following a BMW round a corner on an icy day.

Their back end stepped out majorly, but while I had time to find this very funny, I didn't have time to realise exactly the same thing was going to happen to me. I ended up laughing at myself because my slide resembled the BMW's very closely.

So the sequence of events was:

... ....

Next to Lakeland Limited in Windermere is a little narrow lane, which leads off the A591, down a steep slope, and after just a few yards, turns hard left, before continuing down to Lakeland's car park - about 100 yards away.
One morning as I went to leave that way to work, I was approaching the bend from the car park side but lost momentum on an extremely icy surface. I was starting to reverse back with the view to taking a different route, when a car slowly appeared from the right, bounced off the ARMCO on the far side of the bend, and started heading for me at about 15 - 20 mph, at an angle of about 30 degrees to the direction it was facing!

It was quickly followed by another, and I had to gingerly reverse away at a reasonable speed to ensure it did not catch me up.
I ended up taking refuge in the car park entrance - although the two cars finally stopped a few yards short after cannoning into the kerb, and finally each other.

The farmer in the adjacent farm now grits the road when it is icy - paid for by Lakeland Limited.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

The plot sickens. It's emerging that there were two crashes in the area before the fateful crash:

mega link

Policeman in crash on tragedy route

Jan 13 2006

By Roland Hughes, Daily Post

A ROAD crash, only hours before the fatal cycling club tragedy, involved an off-duty policeman.

Four bikers with Rhyl Cycling Club died, and eight were injured, after a car skidded on ice and collided with them on Sunday morning.

The smash came after two previous accidents on the A547 road on the same morning.

Last night, well-placed sources confirmed the first "non-injury collision" at 5.26am involved a police officer.

But North Wales Police chose not to comment on "further discussion" of the crash until the investigation was complete.

The four cyclists - Maurice Broad-bent, 62, David Horrocks, 55, Wayne Wilkes, 42, and Thomas Harland, 14 - died when a Toyota Corolla skidded on ice into their path at 10.10am on Sunday.

Two other accidents took place that morning - a mile away at 5.26am, and on the same corner at 9am.

Separate sources yesterday said the first accident involved an off-duty policeman. The accident took place just within the Denbighshire boundary near the Borth crossroads, while the cycling tragedy took place on the Conwy side of the A457.

A spokeswoman for North Wales Police repeated their comments from the previous day that "current speculation surrounding this tragic event is not helpful and could well hamper the investigation.

"This is a criminal investigation as is the right and proper procedure for any road traffic collision involving death or serious injury.

"North Wales Police will therefore not be entering into any further discussion until the investigation into all aspects of the incident is complete."

Thomas Harland's funeral will be held at Calvary Church, Victoria Road, Prestatyn, on Monday, January 16, at 11am followed by burial at Coed Bell cemetery.

A funeral service for David Horrocks will be held on Tuesday at 3pm at Colwyn Bay crematorium. Donations to Rhyl and VC Melyd cycling clubs.

The service for club chairman Maurice Broadbent will be held on Wednesday at 1.30pm at St Michael's Church,

Abergele, followed by committal at Colwyn Bay crematorium. Donations are requested towards the Dave Rayner fund or St Kentigern Hospice.

On Thursday at 11.45am, a service will be held for Wayne Wilkes at St Thomas' Church, Rhyl, followed by the crematorium.

Donations will be shared between Shelter Cymru and Alzheimers Research.
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Having taken a position on the possibility of Police negligence, I feel I have a responsibility to follow it up with a demand for an independent investigation.

Clearly it won't be 'good enough' for the Police to investigate themselves.

Does anyone know the correst procedure in such circumstances? Should IPCC appoint independent investigators? Or what?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Are this lot any help? http://www.itai.org/ I found the link on the Roadpeace website.

I'd be investigating the fact it is close to an administrative boundary too.
Boundaries are notorius for authorities trying to abdicate their responsibilities and hope the "other guy" does it!

I was once an observer at a council meeting, where they spent 45 minutes discussing whether the local council or the county council were responsible for mowing a ten foot strip of verge.
The local council already mowed the rest of the verge as it was on thier land, but didn't see why they should mow the last ten foot next to a trunk road unless the county paid some money towards it!!

I hope the gritting is not subject to a similar "it's yours" type spat!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!