Safe Speed Forums

(Topic split from Anonymous Forum by PeterE as deputy moderator)

Ok, I've joined. I'll put all my 'First Impression' views here. Paul - feel free to move them or start a new thread with any one of them if you see fit. I'm new here and therefore am not too sure of the room layout or housekeeping arrangements.

Ernest, reading some of your other posts I now see that you are significantly more balanced than I gave you credit for, and that (IMHO) your posts on that particular thread didn't do you justice.

Cyclist Forum - I see there is one, but see nothing in it of any real value. Hopefully I might be able to help there.

"my wife will call you "Liebchen" a lot!"
Please no. Unless you want me to leave.


I feel that in my post at the top of this thread this is the nub, slightly altered:

"This site is about safe driving. One of the aspects of safe driving is being aware of, and being sympathetic to other road users. In a balanced thread populated by drivers who really are concerned about road safety, I'd have expected another poster or two to challenge some of the views expressed here."

I think I might be using this quote on here in a few threads....


======

The trouble SafeSpeed has is that it is seen largely by the public as an anti-speed camera/ anti speed limit single issue campaign group, not one that encourages safer driving.

Largely, given the standard of driving in this country at the moment, slower driving is safer. You guys may be different, exceptions to the rule, but it is very risky to apply your thought processes and logic to the general population without changing their knowledge and skills first.

To change the dependence on speed limits there needs to be education and re-training of drivers FIRST - before there is a review of speed limits and enforcement methods. Currently the Anti-speed camera campaign plays into the hands of dangerous drivers as it reinforces their view that there is no problem with speeding.

Anyway - enough!

I've joined!

Welcome!

but it's precisely that dependence on speed limits that is one of the great dangers today. "I'm doing the speed limit so I'm safe" regardless of what the conditions happen to be.

So - remove the only current brake on drivers behaviour, then educate them?

as said in another thread - that's what the POLICE are for, pity there aren't more of them because there's plenty of bad driving behaviour going undetected at the moment. Let's see your wonder cameras fix that.

Ern is very balanced in his views all the time!



I hope so. But I would argue with you on one point. Most of those posts to date were made by a senior police office and each one ot do with safe riding techniques - and all in line with Cycling Craft. This site is more to do with keeping things safe and suggeesting wasy to keep things safe

What is of little value? The explanation of positioning? The logic of COAST application to riding a bike? Lights - being seen and how to make you seem "bigger and spotabble" on a bike?

Not a sub forum for daft rants about helmets and "Christmas Tree" cyclists but one where we talk about real safety issues on a bike and some serious bike rides and think we have some training/keep it fit stuff to discuss as well.




She calls everyone Liebchen. IG's mates have all been subjected to this - including his guv - and in the flesh it's a sort of "cat like pounce , purring of Liebchen and two big kisses on each cheek!"



We are trying to campaign for a better testing - Swiss bunch have always thought a good carrot would be a periodic assessment which would include a full medical every 5 years and the assessed drive should be graded with a high score receiving benefit of much lower insurance premiums and/or vouchers to help with running costs.

Most of us are seeing declining standards. My sister had a recent conversation with a colleague. The lady admitted she was a really awful driver and went cold when she thinks of all the errors she made which could have been nasty - and pure luck that nothing dire happened.

Case 1. She was driving to an exercise class at the gym and runnung late. She saw car with no lights approaching her and flashed her lights. Pedestrians at zebra mis-understood the signal and stepped off and she missed them by inches. She was not speeding by the way.

Case 2. She overtook a cyclist and then turned left in front of him - causing him to brake hard to avoid.

She has no points on her licence and my sister has driven with her as passenger. Her verdict? Poor observation and anticipation skills - but perfect at noting the white camera lines and still slows despite being legal for these.


Now with COAST - we are trying to get something across with this. Easy and simple shortcut to most of the Highway Code advice - and with the right training - becomes ingrained and normal driving style.



All discussed in "Improve", "Cycling" "Chat" and elsewhere on the site mate

By the way from me and my wife Wildy

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Dear oh dear.


QED.[/b]

Ah but they don't help. All that happens is people slow for the camera and then speed up again. In fact - this appears to be the only hazard they look for!

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

I'm not sure what you're saying. You seem to support them, so please tell us how they stop, for example: dui, poor observation, lack of indication, poor lane discipline, excessive speed within the speed limit, talking on the mobile, and tailgating (and the list goes on).

I think that's a great user name you picked.



It is fairly new, but I do definitely think that there is information of value there. (So I think you're being a bit harsh) But of course further contributions will be very welcome.



Safe Speed has never campaigned against speed limits or appropriate enforcement. You're right that the misconception is fairly widespread, but you might be surprised to hear that correcting the misconception isn't a communications priority.

That's because Safe Speed communications targets opinion formers rather than the public, and the opinion formers do not have the misconception.



We want to go BACK to the pre-camera system of road safety, when the cultural messages were delivering improvements in safety. I'm certain that we have more dangerous speeds on our roads now than we did then. That's because the most dangerous speeds are occur when drivers fail to slow down when necessary.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Thank you!



I think the fact it isn't a priority is a shame, as you do appear to have a reputation as a renta-quote anti-speed camera organisation. That's not meant to be as harsh as it sounds!

Personally, if it was me, I'd look at ways of putting out other messages as well as appropriate speed - e.g. tailgating and mobile phones, to help counter the 'single issue' image.

johnsher - they are not 'my' cameras. I don't love them either!

But I agree with upholding the current law of the land where possible. If drivers are so poor then we need to re-educate them, not remove mechanisms that prevent them from law-breaking, whether or not the mechanisms work as well as it has been suggested.

Change the law or change the drivers behaviour or both.

I think you have been listening to the wrong people! That view isn't widespread.

But let me explain the campaign objectives a little more. We want to affect policy change. We don't have the resources to influence public opinion directly to the point of affecting change. That's done with multi-million pound budgets and TV advertising.

So the targets for Safe Speed efforts are opinion formers and those involved directly in policy. The media profile simply ensures that those groups have to listen. Honestly, that has been well thought through. So much so that it is to be presented as a 'model of effectiveness' at a 'communications' conference in Paris shortly.



I think the law is fine. I think drivers need the right information and in some cases, the right policing to improve.

The modern problems arise due to the nature of enforcement practice.

I don't suppose you would wish to replace a desire to be safe with a desire to be legal would you? But that's EXACTLY what's happening.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Liebchen


I cannot help it.! I phoned Paul over something und more than probably call him "Liebchen" more than once!

Over on Pistonheads - they did not realise it meant "darling, sweety" etc und they looked on Babblyfish for translation. Only - they got the "i und e" mixed - got Leib chen und thought I was calling them my "little corsets!" It was too much - was pregnant with last kitten at time - I nearly gave birth! My computer suffered the milky drink splutters all over the screen und we will not say what happened to the chocolate and gherkin sandwiches I took a very bizarre liking to at the time. Urrggh!


Thnking back - I really cannot think why I liked them so much! Have normal taste now - made afternoon tea of roast beef und leafy salad sandwich with horseradish dressing - und for evening meal - light home made cream of vegetable soup - followed by remains of our Sunday joint, left over vegetables sympathetically dressed in home made salad drssing und arranged on green salad leaves followed by by home made lemon Torte






Jawohl - ist in early stages. IG thought the safety stuff was important as starter und for references in one place for people. He ist safety ...safety ..safety. He ist nightmare to drive with at - he notices every single thing you do. Und he will ask observation questions to try to cop you out. Does it to me und Ted und everyone - including his wife und older children! Ist like being on driving test with him.

But ist new - Paulie introduce recently und maybe biased as IG (he's my cousin und a good friend to me as well ) opened up most for starter discussion topics und wanted it safety slant first und then we have referral for all - drvers, non cyclists, return to cycling alike - und something to look to in the case of a commuter problem incident. We would like commuting cyclists to relay experiences good und bad so that we can try to learn from thhe anecdotal REAL LIFE experiences of problems encountered.

Serve two purpose - drivers who browse here or join learn a bit more understanding und tolerance - we hope - und we all learn from whatever mistake either side may have made in the tale of woes.

Hope you can help us get a cycling forum together which will be beacon of excellence covering all issues from safety, tips, advice on bikes, gear, good rides und so on.

This ist site for road safety und we all have vested interest in this - und far too many aspects of a very very wide issue has been swept under the tarmac whilst we deplete und buy cameras und create some jobs for people who are not road safety experts und to them "just a job" given the reported mistakes over photo checking und careless typing on NIP und even getting the offence incorrectly recorded on licences.



Ist true.

We are not saying drive at what speed you want to. Jajaja Liebchen - have driven at speeds of well over 100 mph... took the Jag to what some would term as "obscene" - its toppest speed and then some I'd sassed her up a bit when tuning her. But it was legal - in Germany und I put the fear into the stealth Mercs at the time. My husband - I admit - was a bit pale und we will not discuss his gripping of the door handle when I jollied the car over a mountain pass in the high Jura range

Und we go on regular track jollies - und we really have a furball there.

But we do not do stupid! Und if lolly say 30 mph in urban or 20 mph in residential - then we aim for 3 mph cruise below und reduce if necessary. Und in bad weather - we are even more vigilant. Und we use C O A S T at all times. Ist not hard to put into normal practice. It become normal to think of each drive after completing it. If you cannot remember drive - then you have not been applying COAST - und we must remember und recall our drives und reflect how something we did may have affected the other party. Was anything wrong? Was a mistake of some kind made - und if so - how to prevent? Could we have done it better? Und it apply to bike ride too. I do not ride as far as rest of my family - because I cannot. Do not have that stamina back yet. I am the one who follow in car most of time with the picnic. But can manage 15 miles now without feeling strained.



Lieber B Cyclist - you are a kindred spirit to us. Ist exactly what we say on here und on radarfalle (one of this family moderate that forum)

We have always said this. I typed to lieber gone on PH once. (ist - we have some fun und he ist always lovely to me in his replies - even when we differ in opinion He once post he do 110 mph on hard shoulder on top secret mission - und I referred to it as "case of the unexploded jam doughnut" ) We can raise motorway limit to 80 mph tomorrow with no direst consequence. But we have some way to go before we could begin to have derestriction in part like Germany where training ist precise.

We also have to get COAST principles as part of culture of driving. Ist not a daft acronym per some rather daft person who rant in contention for Olympic gold - ist used by DIS und Speed Aware retrain courses in UK und EU. It should be part of THINK!. It should be part of BRAKE as well.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

ist catchy.

Have always been known as "Wildy Wildcat" to all who know me. Fell out of pram as baby und twisted to land on all fours per my Papa - und as child - had so many scraps - they call me a "Wild Cat" My real birth certificate name of Vrenchen sound a bit like "throaty engine" too!



I think the fact it isn't a priority is a shame, as you do appear to have a reputation as a renta-quote anti-speed camera organisation. That's not meant to be as harsh as it sounds!

Personally, if it was me, I'd look at ways of putting out other messages as well as appropriate speed - e.g. tailgating and mobile phones, to help counter the 'single issue' image. [/quote]

I think a lot of this misconception has everything to do with some armchair "academics" who neither drive cars nor ride bikes or do pretty much else...in reality.

I think we have had several thread on tailgating - running for several pages - und do not get me started on Handys. I can rant on for pages about these , Liebchen s over this would abound!





Few people appear to



But they do not prevent law breaking. Lieber submarinated Steviebabes (he ist our local Speedfinder General in Cumbria Torpedoes first und think later at times ) once posted that drivers manipulate - und tja - I actually agreed with him on that one.

Basically - people slow for camera (proven with the really dangerous idiot on Traffic Cops once) und then accelerate hard afterwards. Now ist not Paulie or us saying this - but the manager of the local Camera Partnership here. Und all the BBC Traffic Cops too! Und on boards here und on PH as well to some extent.

Lancs und some partnership have Speed Awares - only they appear to invite safer und usually compliant audience by all account as cut off ist up to 35 mph - though in absolute fairness to Lancs - they did change rules to include a little more flex to 10% +4 across all limit ranges - but if low on bums on seats - 34 mph can still win you a place for £120 if really unlucky!

Also there are DIS but policeman has to see und offer - so not a wide teake up because the guys are not there in sufficient number to do this.

But Liebchen You have more in common with us than you first think! Ist nice to chat to you too.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

edited

As a new poster on SS, I have found a few users can respond with 'knee- jerk' responses when a controversial position is taken by a poster, but MOST appear to take on the comments with well reasoned arguements, in the end the discussion I refer to, it appears to have identified the real crux of the problems, but no other solution than proper roads policing came to light.

My life as a road user has taken the following course,
Pedestrian holding mums hand
Cyclist 8yrs - 16yrs
Scooters and motorbikes 16- 19yrs
Motorist from then on (I'm 39yrs)(Mini, Lada, old Rover 216, old Saab 900, 4.0S Jag)
If all car drivers followed this route (but not my choice of motor) I think it would improve driving standards as my observation, anticipation and self preservation skills were honed while riding motorbikes, always thinking What if..that car pulls out...theres diesel on that bend....they havn't seen me..(I still do today)

I still have a mountain bike (used mainly for fitness in the local park, and going to the corner shop, and I hire scooters or bikes on Med holidays)

When I was taught to drive I was told I should always drive like a chauffer Very smooth and relaxed, with a 'Zen like calm' about you.
Of course sometimes in modern traffic I have to use my cars 250hp to fit into a gap and gain the speed of the prevailing traffic. As with any skills you have to be proficient at the basics before, learning advanced skills, (skid control, 'balancing' a car around a high speed bend etc.).

I haven't read every thread but any input by cyclists or bikers or pedestrians on any topic is valid as we ALL use the roads.

Fatboytim

What have I done to deserve this?

_________________
COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

If you want to understand the philosophy behind our stance in a nutshell, all you have to do is replace the word possible with appropriate, in the above sentence and you've pretty much got it!

Oh, and welcome by the way!

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Handys = mobile phones, as they are known in Germany and Switzerland.

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Pete, I think Handy knew that!!




I'm never sure whether what is written is more funny, or the way it is written!

Thanks BC for the acknowledgement - I do my best no matter how long it takes!

I too am a little concerned that some potential support is lost due to a missunderstanding about the site.
I posted a link from another forum I post in, and THIS was one of the responses - and is typicla of the sort of response you get when you talk about the subject.

No, I have not been caught speeding at Ings although I am sure some wish I was! But I have not seen anyone speeding dangerously there to justify putting the cameras there either - but if 7 people can get the speed limit introduced, then we need supporters "on the ground" to ensure that they get stopped next time.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!