Safe Speed Forums

I'd appreciate any comments on the following:
I was driving northbound on the A34 between Oxford and Bicester one evening over Christmas. In no hurry and generally driving well within the speed limit. Signs warned of roadworks and a 40mph limit.
However, there was no obvious hazard associated with roadworks - both lanes continued unobstructed. Vehicles ahead of me continued at 60 - 70 mph. My options seemed to be to 'go with the flow' or to create a moving chicane by slowing to 40mph. The first option seemed to be the safest course of action, so I dropped back a little from the car in front and then kept up with the general flow of traffic.
Then observed a mass of brake lights in front. Both lanes slowed suddenly and traffic bunched. Even having allowed a bigger than usual gap in front of me, I still had a sense of potential danger ahead. This was, of course, caused by a GATSO.
The same scenario repeated about a mile further down the road.
Slightly further on was a large sign: "Speed limits remain in force for your safety". Is this a joke?
My question is this: I'm an average, careful driver. How am I supposed to cope with situations like this?

You're quite right in your assessment that the situation is ludicrous.

I believe the only solution is to campaign for intelligent road safety policies. While the present policy remains it can only get worse, and ultimately that means more dead people than there ought to be.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The problem is there are legal issues and the Highways Agency has to cover its back. The most likely thing is that the safety barrier is incomplete since the roadworks have not been finished yet; therefore if they didn't leave the speed limit in place and there was a crossover accident they could be sued for negligence.

Of course, what they should do is leave the speed limit but remove the cameras over the holiday period -- that way, they cover their backs but it doesn't create an unnecessary danger.

These road works have been on going for months and most of the work was carried out during the night. The two cameras in question are both on the north bound carriageway, why none on the south bound? I've also been led to believe (and not led to believe otherwise) that speed cameras were used at roadwork’s to protect the workforce.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Over on Pistonheads there is a thread running and DvD on there posted the following in respect of a case that was dismissed at the Luton Mags after a driver received a summons for speeding in already completed roadworks where the speed limit signs, and the Scammer Van, were still in place. DvD said:

There was a case last year at Luton where road works were completed and all that was left was the speed restriction signs and a driver was reported.

Used to get off was the following argument from Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002:

Reg 4.
"road works" means works for the improvement, alteration or maintenance of a road and includes, in relation to England and Wales, street works as defined by section 48(3) of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991

Reg 5. - (1) In these Regulations "speed limit" means a maximum or minimum limit of speed on the driving of vehicles on a road -

(a) imposed by an order under section 14 of the 1984 Act (temporary prohibition or restriction of traffic on roads);

Restrictions on the placing of temporary signs

Direction 36. The signs shown in Schedule 12, other than in diagrams 7014, 7019, 7020, 7032 and 7103, may be placed only in connection with the execution of works on or near a road or a temporary obstruction thereon, and any such sign so placed and any other sign shown in a diagram in Schedules 1 to 11(Diagram 670 Speed limit sign is in this) so placed shall not be retained on or near the road after the completion of the works OR THE REMOVAL OF THE OBSTRUCTION, as the case may be.

Thus it would appear that if the obstruction to the carriageway, presumably cones, lane width restrictions, workmen, etc, have all been removed and the carriageway is then completely unobstructed, the temporary limit is invalid as the signs should have been removed. It should not be necessary for the crash barriers or roaside 'furniture' to all be in place, so long as the obstruction to the carriageway has been removed, even if this removal is just over the holiday period. At least, that's how it reads to me.

mark-w-jones wrote :My options seemed to be to 'go with the flow' or to create a moving chicane by slowing to 40mph. [/quote]

I’ve been in the same situation several times on the M6 during the last 2 months. I’ve tried both methods. My worst experiences were:-
-Got flashed by a scamera while keeping up with the flow, going 50 -55mph through 40mph limit through deserted road works at 11pm (I got no NIP though).
-Next time, (different road works), I tried decelerating gradually until within the 50mph limit. I’m reluctant to try that again - nearly got shunted by an artic coming up behind. The driver was furious.
I hate driving through motorway roadwork speed limits now. Am considering hiding behind large, slow-moving vehicles until safely through.
Can,t help thinking what a ridiculous state of affairs!

This sort of thing is happening right now on the M1 around J20. There are cones on the hard shoulder, and 40mph limit signs, and posts for the mounting of SPECS cameras, but the cameras aren't there yet. Nor has any of the planned resurfacing work started, and no road workers are aournd.
So some drivers are more or less sticking to the 40mph limit, and other are ignoring it and driving at normal motorway speeds.. ISTM that this is highly dangerous, with some of the faster drivers weaving from lane to lane, with much tailgating, some by lorries, going on.
When the resurfacing was going on around J21 and the SPECS were in place, the 40mph limit was well observed by just about everyone, and things were much safer without the large disparity in speeds. I didn't think I'd ever find myself saying this, but the sooner they get those cameras installed the better!

Drove past Swindon the other day (A419) going towards the M4. Temporary 40 limit on dual carriageway with no sign of any roadworks in progress. Usual camera signs. I don't live in the area and don't know where the cameras are so slowed to forty something. The speed differentials between myself and better informed locals doing 80 were frightening.

You've got the same on the M62 eastbound at Ferrybridge.
The 50mph limit is in force from before the new, incomplete, junction, fair one, then it carries on till just past Ferrybridge.
Just after the new junction the limit could be lifted quite safely, there is some barrier work yet to be done, but they haven't done any work on this for about a month.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

Tale i heard about road works on the a 4600 - cones a -go -traffic piled up at 8am - along comes police range rover - cones get chucked - blokes deserve a medal - or comendation

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Something else that a bloody camera can't do!

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

some of the roadworks now have distance*time cameras and youa re assessed over the whole distance instead of a couple of cameras that regular commuters remember where they are speed through and slam on just before the camera and speed up which is probably more dangerous than a faster steady speed right through.
the cameras are not only there to protect workers but to force slower speed for narrower lanes, lane control through contraflows and poor road surface such as use of hard shoulders and adverse camber sections.

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Im difficult to spot in this 44foot truck sorry i must have it in cloak mode again

SOMETIMES - The speed limit is left in place because there is a safety issue - maybe untensioned safety fence- taht requires a speed limit.. Sometimes it is not easily visible to the untrained eye...

However there are a number of Qualified Civil engineers who sit in offices who dictate the way roadworks operate. They often have little idea on Temporary roadworks and are too narrow minded to listen.

Conelayer

This is just an excuse to leave the limit in place and thus justify leaving the cameras in place. The road works on the A34 have moved miles ahead of where they originally started, and yet the 40 mph is still in place from where the works originally started. There are now signs saying barrier incomplete, these signs have been in place for 4-5 weeks and yet there are no workers carrying out any work on the barriers. Both carriageways are clear. It’s quite clear to me (and others) what’s going on.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Its not justification toleave cameras in place..its the truth. Progression of teh works often requires a speed limit to ensure your safety ..you may not realise it.

This isn't directed at you...

But the idea that a speed limit ensures my safety boils my blood. It does no such thing. Never has, never will.

It's possible that under some narrow circumstances a speed limit might make a microscopic change to the risk value.

But as far as ensuring my safety is concerned, that's down to me.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The thing is, as others have pointed out, there are very often very good reasons why the limit is necessary - and often these are reasons which simply aren't visible from the drivers viewpoint. Thats why the limit is there - because drivers cannot reasonably work out what the maximum appropriate speed is. The trouble is, simply imposing the limit won't get drivers to slow down (enough). They won't see the reasons for it, and will thus disregard it. Of course, this problem is made worse by overuse and misuse of speed limits generally - nevertheless, people would still exceed the roadworks speed limits. So the limits have to be enforced to get compliance.

The problem is on both sides. Yes, the authorities have got to be smarter and more sensible in their implementation of limits and enforcement - but drivers have got to start obeying limits (as well as driving at an appropriate speed without having to have their hands held)

It's utter make-believe. Responsible drivers speed with no consequence.

Try this from a draft letter to a Transport Minister:

Using your department's own figures we have around 214,000 injury crashes annually, 32 million licenced drivers, and 12% of injury crashes have 'excessive speed' as a contributory factor. If one driver causes each 'excessive speed' injury crash and if a driving career is 50 years, then we have 1.3 million (214,000*12%*50) excessive speed injury crashes in a driving lifetime. So only about 4% of drivers (1.3 million / 32 million) cause an excessive speed injury crash in an entire lifetime.

Your department has done little or nothing to evaluate the effect of your policies on the 96% of drivers who will never cause an excessive speed injury crash in an entire driving career.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Thats still 25,680 injury accidents caused by excessive speed a year too many.....

Of course it is. But if we expend too much energy treating one microscopic aspect of the sickness then we miss the opportunity to treat the whole patient.

But what we're doing is worse even than that - it's not just the missed opportunity - it's also the terrible side effects. False safety messages. Damage to the police/public relationship. Damage to official road safety messages. Concentrating drivers on the wrong safety factor. And so on.

edited to add: And it's not 'caused by' either. These crashes aren't normally 'caused by' excessive speed. Excessive speed is a contributory factor - that's all. Many of theses crashes - 70% according to sample data - do not involve exceeding a speed limit. Of the remainder quite a sizeable number are caused by extraordinary 'extra legal' behaviours (unlicenced driver, stolen car, motor racing on the highway, reckless driving, drunks etc.).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety