Safe Speed Forums

Yes - I can read Nadsat. Speeders could be lashed upside down to the front of lorries and terrorised into becoming pace car drivers!

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The point of laws is that they change things. What things? Imagine the world entirely without laws, as (presumably) it once was, then compare it. Which world would you prefer to live in?

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So a law should have a desired outcome?

like a process?

I've forgotten much of it. But I did take the trouble to learn it to read the book.



What?

But of course the point is that the law isn't about compliance alone. Indeed, being 'forced to comply' means serious losses to our very humanity.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

IMO Yes - a condition in a process. Laws are a way that power is applied. They both communicate what the condition is, and they set testable metrics for society to determine if a person has violated it. Society itself decides what the law should be at the ballot box. The desired outcome varies. Indeed, there is no requirement that a law must give a desired outcome, because that is subjective and varies from voter to voter. I hope they do. I think they sometimes do. Do they always give a desired outcome? Clearly not, or you would love every law!

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What would the testable metrics be for the speed laws? Lets expand this to the whole suite of speed laws ranging from the limits themselves to the laws that enable SCP's and so on.

Why stop there, when you could go all the way and give them a horrorshow tolchocking, the grahzny bratchnies! (sp?)

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Yes, we don't need 100% compliance for the law to do it’s work. But laws are abused when they are not specific and straight forward, due to that ‘communication’ thing. So there is a grey zone between the law and the usual practise. Unfair things can happen when you are operating in that zone, but complaint is seen as whining when you are formally ‘in the wrong’ anyway!

I deal with it by staying out of the grey zone. By driving gently, I save a bit on petrol and wear and tear, as well, and I help give drivers a good name, which they need right now.

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So if the best laws are specific and straight forward by what metric would you measure the effectiveness of the speeding laws?

Interesting. On the basis that not one of the major (ie electable) parties has ever given the electorate any choice concerning speed limit legislation and that in every survey done it's shown that the vast majority of motorists are exceeding speed limits; could it be suggested that, by its "proxy ballot" actions, the public is making a decision on what the law should be?

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

To civil engineer, I would say that one key diference between the 'speeding'laws and the others is that if you break the other laws the prosecution must prove intent, (called Mens Rea). Accidentaly breaking laws is a mitigation not afforded to the motorist. With our speeding laws, any speed over the limit is automatically assumed to be intentional, which is quite absurd as any drivert knows.

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

A few further thoughts about this ridiculous scheme.

Whoever thought this scheme up hasn't taken into consideration that there's more to safe, sensible driving than observing speed limits. I'm sure that every aspect of the practice of sensible driving has often been discussed on these forums.

Aside from the points that Paul's made, I think what we have is a very worrying aspect of the Doncaster Dumbos propopsals is that any pace car convoy could become a safe haven for drink-drivers. After all, if you have to crawl in a pace driver convoy, doing 20-25mph, could you spot a driver who's under the influence and whose reactions are affected? Especially if they slow down and drive cautiously.

Not only that, we could see sensible drivers throw caution to the wind and attempt u-turns in the middle of main roads, just to avoid tailing one of these self-righteous numpties. I think we can take it as read that these "volunteers" would be obliged to snitch on anyone for the slightest fault.

I shudder to think what truck drivers would make of this crappy scheme.

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Anyone who tells you that nothing is impossible has never bathed in a saucer of water.

Please explain what you mean when you say the "best" laws are specific and straightforward? How do you know one law is “better” than another? Is there any way to directly compare different laws, like you propose? I should have thought simply comparing the law on electrical wiring with the law on speeding, would be difficult. They solve different problems, so they are different laws.

But a law that is specific and straightforward is more likely to be understood by both potential offenders and enforcers, so perhaps a specific and straightforward law is “better” in that respect. Is that what you mean? In general, it may be more difficult to abuse such a law, because perhaps it is easier to determine abuse of a law with well-defined criteria rather than a law with ill-defined criteria. Anyway, let me know what you mean by “best”.

The metric I would use to measure the effectiveness of the speeding laws is this. I’d ask a reputable academic body to run long-term on-going statistical studies on the matter and publish their findings. Luckily, this has been done, and you can read some of the their findings (specifically on cameras) here - http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d ... 610816.pdf

I hope that helps.

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Yeah, how hypocritical can you get. The very people who do the speeding vote to keep the laws as they are, or even fail to put up a candidate to speak for them! Imagine that - you could call yourselves the Abolitionists!

Joking aside, it’s a really poor show, isn’t it? Perhaps people don’t care. After all, we also hate litter bugs and other forms of petty, anti-social slobbery, but we don’t vote parties in or out on the basis of it, do we?

I’d vote for PR, pogo, if I was you, but the Lib Dems have gone into “Jeremy Thorpe” mode!

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A nice "independant report" - commissioned by DFT, paid for by DFT, from what i can see the "facts " used are those provided by DFT ---

Like asking Rothmans to prove that tobacco don't harm you or telling us that 25mph in a "playstreet" filled with kids is safe because we're not breaking the speed limit

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

do you think i actualy care if i go to a site and report no one, the tape is sent in with a big ZERO on it, ok maybe one or two of the the drivers might be biting their nails for the next fortnight

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now retired

I guess the fundamental characteristic of a good law is that it differentiates well between desireable and undesireable behaviours.

* To 'differentiate well' it will need to be readily understood.

* It will need to be broadly respected because we have more people than policemen.

So that's speed limits on the scrap heap then is it?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yeah, that's the British mentality nowadays –only obey laws that benefit us personally, while laws the benefit anybody else get trashed, you know? We are close to rock bottom, at least as far a mutual understanding and respect goes.

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Slow down, botach ... you've got more posts than I have now!

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Indeed true... But we don't criminalise some 2 million people a year for being petty or snobbish either.

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev