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Ah, so we're 3 dimensional beings existing on the 'surface' of a 4th space hypersphere. A 'closed universe' model. I must say I like that model.

I don't recall that Einstein proposed a closed universe model, although I wouldn't be at all surprised if he did.



I don't know. I'd guess probably not, but I could be wrong. (This is also a 'topic' within a forum, but I knew what you meant.)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That's if time is really infinite.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Who do we blame for that?

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Ask the average JP, and you'll get an average JP reply. I'd like to concider the fact that most posters in the forum are a modicum over 'turnip' when it comes to forming our own opinions.

Now I am entirely sure how I and the rest of the universe got here, but I'll forget my own convictions for a moment and try to be as unbiased as possible.

"The Token Evolutionist" (algae level) - Man came from monkeys....and fish and stuff. Em, they must have come from that primal* soup. (*intended) Something about Big Bangs?

"The Dunno Creationist" (Fourth 'Day' Level) - God made me, and everything. I've got no clue why.

"The Antagonistic Agnostic" (If one claims to be agnostic...) "Don't know, don't care - I'm here now...deal with it.

"Other" - (sub level 5, boiler-room) gis ma dole muniy noo!!

I read last week that this past few generations have been the FIRST in history that THE SUCCESSFULL humans contribute LESS to the gene-pool, than the uneducated (plebes) - this is effectively reverse evolution. (Well educated, intelligent couples having none or few children as opposed to non-working, uneducated dole spongers filching handouts from the state (us) for their five kids to five fathers (genetic diversity?)


As a side note. We, humans, no matter how intelligent or learned cannot get out heads round basic concepts that require a little more understanding than 'mere mortals'. What is outside this expanding universe? When did 'time' begin? Can something be infinitely small?.... messes with my head!

But even sticking within a few thousand years, the chances are really stacked against you sitting there typing.

What was the chance of your mother and father meeting in the first place? What was the chance of a single particular sperm cell amongst millions finding the egg, rather than any of the others? Then you have to consider how likely it was that your mother and father were born. etc.

Basically, even if you go back only a few generations, the chances of you being born are pretty infinitessimal.

Similarly, the chance of any one combination in the lottery winning is 1:13,983,816, almost negligible in reality to anyone just buying a single ticket - but, very often, someone wins.

The chance of any specific outcome might be very small, but the chance of a similar outcome might be quite reasonable and pretty likely to happen. Another example to consider is the particular arrangement of all the air molecules in the room where you are now. The chance against the current specific arrangement is probably trillions of trillions to one against (that particular arrangement will probably never happen again, ever), but the fact remains that it's happened, despite the huge odds against it.

If you ran evolution again from the beginning, humans almost certainly wouldn't exist. The specific circumstances have led to us, however, despite the huge odds against it.

One of my favourites is a species of bacteria, which has evolved the ability to digest nylon (as its only food source), discovered in nylon waste from a factory.

Before anyone says, "so what", nylon didn't exist anywhere on earth before about the 1930s - it's completely synthetic. How could the bacteria have survived before then without food?

...but it's still just bacteria, and will remain bacteria. It hasn't evolved into a poly-bag muchosarus! And this bacteria didn't spontaneously appear - it is an obvious mutation of an existing life form. "you can't get owt from nowt"

At the risk of being frivolous, what the hell it is the weekend.

Take the Babel fish as an example, it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly usefull could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist" says God "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

And on that not I say goodnight and thanks for all the fish (or should it be good morning, buggered if I know !!

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Here's an argument I like from a Dire Straits lyric:

Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong...

Track: Industrial Disease
Album: Love over Gold
Link: http://www.dire-straits.org/Lyrics_Love_over_Gold.html
Year: 1982

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

hobbes wrote:

Give it time. If there is one how many more are there? Is that where my socks go?

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

[quote="hobbes

...but it's still just bacteria, and will remain bacteria. It hasn't evolved into a poly-bag muchosarus! And this bacteria didn't spontaneously appear - it is an obvious mutation of an existing life form. "you can't get owt from nowt"[/quote]

Probably started off life as a big mac -the sort where meat is an opt :ional extra

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Yes, it's still just a bacteria, at the moment, but what did you expect in less than 70 years-worth of time? Things don't evolve from single-celled bacteria to elephants in only a few decades. The processes take probably several billion (maybe even trillion) generations to progress from bacteria to something as complex as an elephant.

Yes, of course it's a mutation. The mutation was apparently a malfunction which changed a sugar-consuming protein, into a nylon-consuming protein (it was purely by chance that the mutation happened to allow the bacteria to consume nylon). But this malfunction occurred in a substance which happened to be living in a waste dump from a nylon factory. Most mutations would lead to problems which would cause the thing to die, and the mutated gene would die with it. This mutation actually proved beneficial to the bacteria, a trait which will be passed on to its descendents.

This is natural selection in action. If a species develops a trait (whether through a mutation or series of small changes) which is likely to help it survive to reproduce, then the trait will survive in the gene pool. Over time, these differing traits give rise to different species. Many of the different species will share some of these traits - e.g. mammals, reptiles, etc. all have backbones, so must be more closely related to each other than crabs/lobsters etc., which have an exoskeleton.

Coming back to bacteria, there are many strains which have evolved resistance to some antibiotics - probably by a similar process to the formation of the nylonase protein mentioned above.

"It's life Jim. But not as we know it...."

ahh, more evolution in progress... either that or the 'Big Guy' is messing with the toads again.

from The Register

A little late to the argument, but most people have missed the biggest problem with 'intelligent design' which is it claims to be a scientific theory. I have no problem with anyone believing what thay want, whether it is God, Jesus, Allah, flying pink elephants, unicorns, fairies, etc...

All these are beliefs whereas evolution is a scientific theory. To be classified as a scientifc theory, the idea must be nullifiable. To do this, the proponents of the idea must propose the null-hypothesis which is what must be shown to nullify the theory.

With evolution this is simple. Show evidence of one living organism that could not have evolved. With one piece of evidence, you disprove the theory.

Now lets take intelligent design. Since it does not define who the creator is, you cannot prove that a creator doesn't exist, hence the theory cannot be nullifiable, hence it is not scientific.

Or as Haldane said when asked what could disprove evolution "A rabbit fossil in the Cambrian" ( from one of Dawkins books.)

Darn good topic, this.

As much as I'd like to believe that when I die, I will go to a idyllic place free of pain, stress and suffering, the theory of Evolution does fit known facts better than the Creationist theories do. There is evidence of evolution all around us, yet little evidence of the presence of a benevolent God.

However, the Creationists view this as a matter of faith, and hence the balance is maintained...

As for "Intelligent Design"... Whether or not you agree with the thory, you've got to respect these people for putting a new idea out there for discussion. If it wasn't for Man's ability to do this, we'd all still think the Earth was flat.

Coming back to Evolution for a second....




When choosing a mate, looks are known to be the guiding factor in humans. Whether we like to admit it or not, we're all a shallow bunch.

Western women like tall men, and Western men like women with big boobs. As a result, the average height & bra size of people in the Western world are increasing. This is just one example of ongoing human evolution.

With evolution favouring those with good looks, big boobs and low intelligence, I guess that makes Jessica Simpson a template for the future of humanity. I'm not sure whether that's encouraging or not...

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

Or as Monty Python put it....

"I'm Brian of Nazerath, and so's my wife!"

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!