Safe Speed Forums

If you're cornering hard, yes I fully agree, no question about it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Now , there was a saying about Grandmothers and eggs - i would suspect that seeing TRIPLES/Dave's record - i for one respect it -he's a tad older than me - with a slightly better NCB , less police pulls -he drives the North Yorks roads daily -and you lot take the piss -i'd have thought that a bit of respect might be more in line - this bloke learned to drive in MOggie minor times , on roads - well more like things from the roman era -got a high NCB ,AND NO POINTS, YET moves along - Gents - suggest you stop critizing him and listen.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Does anyone know if the IAM have changed their System/Roadcraft programme in the light of changing vehicle, road and traffic conditions over the years?

You might expect that their training would develop to meet new challenges.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Dave – they look at the elements and habits which you need to work on to ensure a good pass. None of it is supposed to make you feel “a lesser driver!”

I remember taking a very nervous Wildy out for the first time behind the wheel after the incident.

Shaky, nervous and every time we stopped - a frozen look into the mirror to check the guy behind was gonna stop!

She stalled it a fews times as well and I think we had the bumpiest ride she's ever done on that first step back for her.

She’s still what I’d term as “natural” and she eased back in toe driving seat- and could handle constructive criticism anyway. Well - most of the time ...

OK Dave -

Let’s take these one by one…



Were you using the taxi driver grip or a rotational? Or was he “pull push” traditional.?

I generally like to see a good mix of pull –push /rotational and fixed input as it tells me you really understand the “feel” of the car.

[quote[
Steering wheel grip [/quote]

Was this too tight a grip - your hold should be light – but giving leeway to tighten should the need arise.

Maybe you were tenser than you thought and perhaps reacting to what you perceived as "judging you" as opposed to assessing some areas to consider tightening a little.



Ah – the gear box “caress”

Amzaing how people get into the habit of fondiling the gear stick after hours in a rush hour.

Try to get back into the habit of running your hands with the same loving manner around the steering wheel to get back that "natural feel" you had as a 17 year old starting out for the first time.


Just practice the three main steers – they become normal again after a few days.

Gear changes whilst steering – in danger of the other sort of “coasting” – which can lead to loss of control and “feel”

This is a habit which creeps in to the majority style – and just thinking about gear changes consciously tends to steer you out of this - but changin gear in a bend or during a turn is not the best way to TLC your car around a manoevre.

Try talking to your car! Apparently a lot do - heard this on the radio...



In what way? Were you using all three mirrors? This is about the O in COAST.

Take a read at the discussions in “Improve and Cycling.”

IAM is about enhancing your observation skills

He is suggesting an area in which you just need a bit of spit and polish.

We all get into the habit of the glance as opposed to the more pronounced and obvious look we did for the first L test. Just get Eileen ((remembered right?) to ask what is behind you at any one time in any journey - I do this to Wildy and Ted and my own wife all the time. I cop my Alice out on the odd one and end up in the spare room – and think I got Ted once… but never tripped the Wildy Cat
… I limped for a while after doing this to her sister, Krissi though…



Again – have a think about this one. Why do you think the gear was inappropriate – did the engine labour? Did it over rev? Did you select the correct gear on the roundabout?



Did he explain this? Was it your observation and information gathering on approach? Did you select the correct lane?

Decelerate – prepared to stop but ready to go?

Was your speed on entry to the roundabout “blending properly with the traffic flow” and how did any manoeuvre affect other road users – do you think?

Start evaluating each drive - and think how did whatever I did affect the other bloke and just think if there were any areas which in your honest opinion needed a little "cosmetic nip and tuck.surgery "



Hey – you should have heard my trainer to me once at Hendon – Crikey!


All because I used an incorrect gear in his opinion.

Then there was the time I wrote off a Cop car…

. Was trying to stop a villain (yeah - really - honest! was not testing the motor ....!) – but spinning its rear and if it had been on track – a classic drift – but I clipped a parked car ….and – er – doughnuts and coffee were not provided at the debriefing on that occasion.

(Um – was - er young – er grown out of it now – shuffles feet… cough!)


and I was in the dog house when I blew up an engine after the Swiss girls had worked on it for a rally and I accelerated too hard and took a corner too fast as well on track..

They have never ever let me live that one down - they trot it out with glee whenver they can... - and Wildy takes delight in doing so in front of all my pals ... Saving her the bother of posting this...

Pah - wimmin..



Habits build over a lifetime. I would think about what he said and try to adapt improvements within your own style. We all have our own style. Wildy and Kriss are sisters – taught at same stable - but Krissi is courteous aggression and whazz.

Wildy? Simple no nonsense - clinical- cool but courteous precision which just progresses for A to B very quickly and legally on the whole.

We thus have and are entitled to a style – and I daresay cycling-wise –our honking elegance up hills are just as varied from easy to painful viewing.




I would also think that some nerves set in - people are self conscious if they think some one is watching each move critically.


I would just ask for another Observation with a different observer – but in the meantime – think about what the first one advised and have good read of Road Craft.

IAM still looks for safe, smooth, silky, systematic drive and COAST never changes

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

How very dissapointing, it sounds like your local group might want to have a chat with my local group (Chelmsford), most are trafpol (ex or serving) and they are very keen to get youngsters involved (have had a partnership with Chelmsford Borough Council targeting local colleges.

They were very keen to get away from the staid image that people associate with IAM, part of this has been through feedback so please don't give up - talk to them and tell them what you think, they can't change if they don't know !!

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

The way it sounds to me is that it was the attitude of the observer that was the problem. Surely every first timer should be expected to make lots of mistakes since we all get into bad habits after years of driving.

If the observer is incapable of talking someone through their mistakes without developing a snooty, superior "schoolteacher" attitude, then they shouldn't be doing the job. It's as simple as that.

Have you thought about writing a letter of complaint to the IAM? They may give you another session for gratis, with a better observer...

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

Well my friend botach, you're very kind in what you say there.

It was inevitable that some people would take the view that Mr Cocky had at last got his comeuppance, and not before time - so there should be no surprise in that. OK, if that is how some people feel about it, it is best that they say so and then we know where we are.

The essence of all this though is that we want to improve and progress, and we do not do that by leaving things unquestioned, unchallenged, unchanged. Therefore I question, I challenge and I seek to change, but perhaps not always by means of the best method! Maybe I'll have to try and learn a better approach.

Now, in general terms I do not profess to know the right answers, but there are lots of cases where I strongly believe I know what is right. This stems from my driving career having been a very long one with a huge mileage involved, and thankfully also a very safe one. In view of that, I am finding it very hard to change my style in favour of detailed requirements from the likes of the IAM, requirements that I simply can not see are superior to the system that works so well for me. That is not to say that I feel I have nothing to learn, far from it, but what I experienced yesterday was almost entirely a demolition job, and really nothing more.

In whatever remains of my motoring career I'm going to enjoy it, and that does not mean throwing caution to the wind, as we all know what is at stake, and there is much to consider carefully. As I have said previously, I have a strong interest in the situation of young drivers, even more so after reading the long list of tragic accidents involving youngsters in another topic on this site yesterday.

There is so much we could be doing to improve matters, and I feel very frustrated that a long established and generally respected organisation like the IAM is not, in my view, shaping up to draw in more of the wider driving community and really achieve something. Quite frankly I think they are doing more repelling than attracting, based on their current stance.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

My friend In Gear - you have gone to a great deal of trouble there, which is very much appreciated. I will read through it more carefully a little later and reply properly. Thank you.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Maybe so, but it is unlikely to be my former instructor. I last met him in the summer of 1957 - and at that time he was probably about 20-25 years older than me.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

The local IAM group did say that if I had a personality clash with my Observer, then a different Observer could be appointed, but I didn't really anticipate a need for that. In the event there perhaps has been a personality clash, but even without that I think we still have the problem of IAM ethos and culture versus my approach and philosophy.

At the very least I shall give the IAM my reactions to what has happened, so things may be clearer when that has been done. I don't wish to prejudge the matter, but from what others have experienced previously there seem to be no strong grounds for optimism.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Hello Rigpig,
Yes, I'm afraid it felt almost from the start that this was not going to work. My Observer adopted the approach that he was going to be doing all the instructing and telling me how things had to be, and I was in effect required to accept it all without question.



I had no preconceived ideas as to what I might learn from the IAM, but very little of what they advocate in their book or elsewhere looks very new to me in terms of fundamental principles. I tend to think I'm quite receptive to discussing any of these matters, but I do expect it to be done on an even handed basis. My mileage (and time) tested methods might indeed be flawed, but if they are the flaws are pretty well hidden, and nothing much seems to emerge in the course of my travels to bring them out.

It would appear that my style is indeed at odds with what is expected by the IAM, and that was to some extent anticipated by me. Even so, what still shocked me was their unyielding rigidity, their insistence that only their way was right, and that unless I complied with it in very close detail, I would remain in a more or less permanent stae of condemnation.

It's all food for thought, to me at least. Whether or not the IAM will be in any way prompted to review their approach remains to be seen, but the reported experiences of other people are not encouraging.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Well if he did have any notions about me being a safe driver he kept them well concealed.



In your situation JT, i.e. looking for advanced driver training, I would go nowhere near the IAM, or even RoSPA for that matter. What I would do is spend some money on sessions with real experts who do know things about advanced driving. With them you have a better chance of having things explained and demonstrated properly, as opposed to getting bogged down in minor details of the sort that belong in the basic driving tuition for new drivers starting from scratch. It seems to me the IAM has not really progressed beyond that stage.

IAM = Advanced Driver? Not really, IMHO. Sorry.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Perhaps we're both being a bit harsh here...

My feeling is that different people learn in different ways, and perhaps the IAM isn't very good at accepting that. Learning a system by rote may (for example) suit the Police well, as they only need to get a small percentage up to the top level they are looking for, therefore they can afford to filter out all the ones with a "non standard" mindset and end up with a set of drivers who all work on a similar basis, which makes their training more efficient.

But if you are setting out to teach the population at large - especially when they are coming to you on a voluntary basis - you need to fit the teaching model to the pupil, not the other way around.

For myself I have a very logical and analytical mindset. If someone tells me to do something a certain way my immediate reaction will be to look for a sound reason why. Only if I can see and accept the logic behind something will I truly take it on board. This tends to make me very sceptical about rules such as "don't fixed-input steer" and "don't overlap braking and changing gear". The instant I see the exception to such a rule then its authority completely evaporates. If I'm "not allowed" to simultaneously brake and down-change how can I approach a downhill hairpin? If I "can't" corner and change gear how do I take a tightening uphill corner?

For me, the better approach is to say "here are a variety of techniques you can choose from, and here are some situations to teach you how to make the correct choice". Where "choices" prompt us to think, "rules" do the opposite...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Oh that's OK, thanks. I'm glad that's cleared up.



Thank you, I think we're on the same wavelength there.



I have no quarrel with The System as a framework for a logical and sound approach to driving.

It has been my feeling that the principle elements of The System are incorporated in my system, even if some people might not immediately recognise them. In the final analysis I believe my system, and the way I apply it, does not give an inferior result to the one advocated by the IAM.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Ah, a lighter note. Very welcome. Thanks Ernest.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Somebody who reckons to know about these things told me that The System originated 30 years or so ago, and it remains unchanged. In the case of fundamental principles that might be right and proper, but I do think that changes to general approach and style should be considered and incorporated from time to time, along with detailed practical aspects.

Maybe the IAM does this, but it is still leaving most of their problem untouched IMHO.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

That all makes a lot of sense to me, except I don't think we are being too harsh in our opinions of the IAM mentality. We, at least, are not in the demolition business. Evolutionary change and improvement is our objective, I think.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

OK thanks SE. I shall let them know what I think. What effect it has will remain to be seen.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Oh dear, I don't think I'd do any better than Dave.
Although I've been driving over 25000 miles per annum since about 1962 and have 2 protected no-claims discounts and (currently) a clean licence, I do most of the things criticised. I brake into tightening corners and change gear whilst braking, cross hands on slippery roads, change gear in corners especially, as JT says, uphill hairpins, and I'm sure I do lots of other things not as per the IAM book. In automatics I left-foot-brake and keep a bit of throttle on when using manual down-shift into corners whilst braking to smooth-out the change and maintain stability.
However, I last had a road accident on 14th Feb 1973, although I have had one or two rally 'offs' in the last 45 years of motorsport.
Maybe the hard and fast rules shouldn't be so hard and fast and the IAM should be more felxible as to what constitutes safe and progressive driving whilst 'making progress' on a journey.

Oh I'll give them the feedback, that is only fair. Actually the Observer said he had been an Observer for quite a long time, was one of the better ones (modest too, you see) and had lots of successful Associates, including one chap aged about 70.

Perhaps I've got a bit too crotchety before my time!

Best wishes all,
Dave.