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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 09:04 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/sto ... 60,00.html

Surveillance on drivers may be increased

Duncan Campbell and Rob Evans
Tuesday March 7, 2006

Drivers talking on mobile phones or failing to wear seatbelts could find themselves tracked down through a widened use of road surveillance cameras, under proposals due to be floated in parliament tomorrow. The plans would form part of a major expansion of camera surveillance which critics say is already transforming Britain into the most watched country in the world.

The case for cameras to be focused on people using mobiles as they drive is made by the independent adviser to the transport select committee, Robert Gifford, of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety (Pacts).

He argues that automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) technology should be applied in new ways to help defray costs of cameras and to catch offenders. "One of the good things about ANPR is that people are often multiple offenders so it would provide useful intelligence," he said. "Those responsible for 7/7 got to Luton station by car."

Mr Gifford said expanding the use of technology for tracking the movements of cars could lead police to people who had committed other offences in the same way that Al Capone was eventually caught through his income tax evasion. He claimed that for greater safety and "the greater good of society", most people would be prepared to accept "a slight reduction of our liberty".

Existing road cameras divide into two groups: speed cameras, of which there are around 6,000 nationally; and up to 8,000 ANPR cameras which trigger a reaction when wanted, stolen or cloned number plates or uninsured cars are spotted. Under the proposal, police would also look out for mobile phone users and seatbelt offenders. Those arguing in favour of expanding the cameras cite the continuing death toll on roads and the threat of terrorism. In 2004, 3,221 people died in accidents and 31,130 were seriously injured.

It is also argued that the cameras bring in essential revenue.

Department of Transport figures released under the Freedom of Information Act indicated that total fine receipts for speeding and traffic light offences detected by camera in 2003-04 were £113.5m, of which nearly £92m was "reinvested in road safety as payments back to ... the police, local highway authorities and magistrates courts". The Treasury retained the balance of nearly £22m.

Tomorrow's transport committee session and a further meeting next week will examine how far this technology can be expanded and what use can be made of the data. Evidence will be presented by bodies representing the police and organisations that campaign on road safety.

Any attempt to widen the application of camera surveillance is likely to be strongly resisted.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed campaign which opposes cameras, said: "Ministers and senior civil servants are largely being persuaded that technological interventions are a good idea by those with a vested interest in the technology. The sums involved are huge."

Mainstream motoring organisations also have reservations. Andrew Howard, head of road safety at the AA Motoring Trust, believed that current technology was not good enough to implement the idea properly: "It would be difficult to prove whether you were holding your mobile phone or scratching your ear."

A spokeswoman for Liberty said increasing the use of cameras to catch drivers breaking the law would not be a curb on their civil liberties.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:59 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
"Those responsible for 7/7 got to Luton station by car."


So what? 99% of terrorists eat bread within a week of committing their crimes!

Even if they had blanket camera coverage on their journey to Luton it wouldn't have affected them, although possibly if they were planning the acts via. mobile while driving they might have got a fine. The reason being a) they were in a hire car, and b) they don't appear to have been of interest to the authorities anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:56 
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g_attrill wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
"Those responsible for 7/7 got to Luton station by car."


So what? 99% of terrorists eat bread within a week of committing their crimes!

yep, you can do what you want if you blame it on terrorism. This is just as stupid as claiming ID cards would have somehow magically stopped the bombers.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 15:09 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
"Those responsible for 7/7 got to Luton station by car."


So what. Would it have prevented the crime....bearing in mind the fact that they were suicide bombers! If you were aware that ANPR is in use you could use a rental car, or just take a taxi. Not exactly the most difficult system for a terrorist to overcome. And that assumes that the police are actualy looking for them, which they were not.

Also most cameras on our streets are un-manned. They just record data for future use. How else do you get camera footage of someone getting their head kicked in without a cop in sight.

The underground is covered in cameras but it did not prevent that bomb did it.

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Last edited by Gizmo on Tue Mar 07, 2006 15:24, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 15:22 
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Quote:
"Those responsible for 7/7 got to Luton station by car."


A very strange comment! If they want to introduce seat belt cameras, why not just say so and let there be a debate on the merits of that idea?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 15:32 
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Zamzara wrote:
Quote:
"Those responsible for 7/7 got to Luton station by car."


A very strange comment! If they want to introduce seat belt cameras, why not just say so and let there be a debate on the merits of that idea?


There used to be an old fashioned deterrent - bobby on the beat and Trafpol in traffic car ---might be a good excuse to bring them back :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 18:32 
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since i have been posting here i have been criticised for only detecting speeding vehicles, and turn a blind eye to seatbelt mobilephone offences now there are propsals to combine a number of offences within the safety camera programme, is that wrong or do peoples views change once proposals are made

how about safety camera and ANPR combined with a mobile CCTV station as well

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 18:41 
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Youv'e got it all wrong about people who don't wear seatbelts.

They clearly wish to die. Therefore they are suicidal. They are obviously suicide bombers. Terrorists must be stopped. Let's photograph all cars all the time to catch the murdering b******s.

(Takes Valium and lies down)

:) :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 19:06 
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Would they obtain proper identification evidence to charge the actual person concerned, or just hound the registered keeper as with speed cameras?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 19:19 
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camera operator wrote:
since i have been posting here i have been criticised for only detecting speeding vehicles, and turn a blind eye to seatbelt mobilephone offences now there are propsals to combine a number of offences within the safety camera programme, is that wrong or do peoples views change once proposals are made

how about safety camera and ANPR combined with a mobile CCTV station as well


You'll need a pay rise then , or perhaps work on a commission basis :lol:

(Oh and a new long fancy,PC title -)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 21:01 
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camera operator wrote:
since i have been posting here i have been criticised for only detecting speeding vehicles, and turn a blind eye to seatbelt mobilephone offences now there are propsals to combine a number of offences within the safety camera programme, is that wrong or do peoples views change once proposals are made


Yes, we would like to see other dangerous activity clamped down on but seatbelt wearing is hardly the greatest threat on the roads is it?

It would be good if we had a device which spotted general bad driving, then stoppe dthe driver to find out if there was some reason behind it, like drink or drugs, or maybe a boot full of explosives.

No camera system is going to do that.

As we have found with city centre CCTV, cameras are very good at recording crime but do nothing to prevent it.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 21:10 
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Homer wrote:
Yes, we would like to see other dangerous activity clamped down on but seatbelt wearing is hardly the greatest threat on the roads is it? no it is not, if they want to go flying through the windscreen thats their choice

As we have found with city centre CCTV, cameras are very good at recording crime but do nothing to prevent it.


come off it, when i was in CCTV, we knew the hotspots for car crime, we knew the nominals, track them long enough dispatch a pand to have a word they soon moved on,

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 22:48 
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Didn't actually stop any crime then - just moved it elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 00:32 
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malcolmw wrote:
Didn't actually stop any crime then - just moved it elsewhere.


There have been several reports that CCTV doesn't actually reduce overall crime levels it just moves it on to other places or forms. When it does occur the cameras are often either out of action, pointing the wrong way or of too poor quality to be of any use, or in many places now, pointing at the bus lanes or junctions and being used to issue PCN's. Nice use of that ring-fenced government funding for crime reduction :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:48 
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To fight crime you need a police force.

CCTV can be usefull AID to direct police. However at the moment there are fools and idoits how seem to belive they are a suitable alternaitve.

It is almost as if we accept crime will happen and the just video it,and them we hope to catch people.

It is crap.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 17:59 
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PeterE wrote:
Would they obtain proper identification evidence to charge the actual person concerned, or just hound the registered keeper as with speed cameras?


it will of course be business as usual, reg keeper gets it in the pocket regardless, no proof needed,

it does knock on the head the idea of pool cars for business use, everybody swearing they didn't go to get the doughnuts at dinnertime, that time the scammer took their photo :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 18:19 
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ANPR is a wonderful technology with one tiny flaw - it's b*ll*cks.

Taking photographs doesn't stop dangerous acts, it mearly allows a means of punishing for them.

To completely avoid any prosecution, all one will need to do shortly is let your tax, MOT and insurance expire then send your V5 to the DVLA claiming you've sold the car.

Police cars are almost extinct and the chances of being pulled are very small anyway.

So you drive around in an non-existant vehicle. The cameras take photos of where you've been, but not where you came from or where you're going.

Lets return cameras to what they're good at - taking pretty photographs. They are NOT suitable for providing safety or security.

I most certainly do mind a "small" reduction in liberties. I pay my way and abide by laws, but I DESPISE being watched.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 20:04 
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ree.t wrote:
To fight crime you need a police force.

CCTV can be usefull AID to direct police. However at the moment there are fools and idoits how seem to belive they are a suitable alternaitve.

It is almost as if we accept crime will happen and the just video it,and them we hope to catch people.

It is crap.


When CCTV took off we saw an increase in hoods/ hats /balaclavas /scarves - why - the element frightened of being recognised took evasive action - who could prove conclusively that so & so was that hooded person in the video - as said -CCTV great as an AID - to let REAL POLICE know where to go .
Wonder how all this modern technology will cope with certain female elements of our society , all we see is their eyes - several drive tha car - none wear a belt - the RK i s one of them and all swear that at that time they weren't driving.
And the burden of proof is on the police.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 01:31 
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What happens if the offending mobile phone - turns out to be the driver using his handheld Personal Digital Organiser.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 08:26 
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camera operator wrote:
Homer wrote:
Yes, we would like to see other dangerous activity clamped down on but seatbelt wearing is hardly the greatest threat on the roads is it? no it is not, if they want to go flying through the windscreen thats their choice

As we have found with city centre CCTV, cameras are very good at recording crime but do nothing to prevent it.


come off it, when i was in CCTV, we knew the hotspots for car crime, we knew the nominals, track them long enough dispatch a pand to have a word they soon moved on,


But the police intellignece system knows te crime hot spots anyway - so the cam's just providing back up evidence but not actually preventing it.

But in any case - a camera designed to detect seat belts and hands held wouyld have to take a photo of every single car passing it - it's not likely to have a trig mechanism.

Nope - much better to have more police who can use their "bobby's nose and instinct" to cop a wrong 'un at it as well. :wink:

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