Safe Speed Forums

I've been lurking here for a wee while and largely agree with the consensus that speed cameras aren't nearly as effective as road education and proper traffic police, and don't really tackle the symptoms of poor driving.

However, I'm not really convinced they're ENTIRELY useless and that every single one should be dug up. I think they are some - albeit few - situations where raw speed really is the problem.

For example, cameras placed at the start of a 30mph limited village on a 60mph main road could be good. After all if I lived in the village I wouldn't like it if folk went through at much more than 30, and if folk were forced to slow to 30 at the start of the village there might be a possibility that they'd continue in this way - I'm particularly looking at the FMC here!

What are your thoughts on this?

i think speed cameras are very useful in places like this and outside schools and other genuinely high risk areas where it would be suicidal to speed (maybe there hasn't even been an accident yet, better to be proactive than reactive)

i can appreciate that the present system for siting is somewhat flawed and needs reviewing but i don't think they are blanketly useless

i think the public would be a lot more supportive of cameras if they were used in conjunction with variable speed limits - enforcement at 20mph at school entry/exit hours and then set to 30mph/40mph/disabled outside these times?

In the old days they had flashing yellow lights outside of schools - and still do in a few areas.
We also had public information films on TV, (BBC) and road safety adverts which gave you information about how you SHOULD drive.

Now we get the THINK adverts which are negative in their approach.

We also get those "We dont need to look here" adverts. What is the point of those? If they dont need to look, why tell us, why not just catch the towrags who dont tax their cars?
Chances are they won't be insured or MOT'd.
It's because they cannot find you as simply as they would have you believe, so they rely on the advert to persuade you not to be a naughty boy.

Cameras are the same. Everybody thinks they wont get caught - and a lot of them are right.

Outside my son's school in Windermere, we have a local policeman who from time to time stands outside with a handheld speed gun.

For the first fortnight, offenders got a warning unless well over the limit. After that, they get/got a ticket - and he pulls up those with no seatbelts, kids unsecured in the back, and cars which need a little more maintenance thant they have had so far!

ALL the regular abusers have had a warning, and because they NEVER know when he will be there again, they treat the road with some RESPECT.

A camera on it's own never has that respect, and is easily avoided by slowing for 100 yards or less. Kevin and his speed gun can pop up any where, any time, and it's working.
In return, Kevin now knows the regular offenders, and the new to the area just over the limit drivers, and gives them some respect too - a firm talking to, and a warning unless they are lippy about it!!

If a parent or other concerned party knows of a driver or an area where there is a problem, they let Kevin know, and he goes and sorts it.

This is the sort of approach which we are short of, but ultimately if we fail to address the poor standard of driver training in this country, we will find no amount of cameras are going to do any good and our police will have an uphill struggle.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I'm surprised how little mention if made of SIDs (Speed Indication Devices) and VAS (Vehicle Activated Signs) in these discussions.

The evidence points to them being MORE effective than speed cameras in many circumstances, because they alert you in real time rather than by a letter in the post a week later, and they name and shame (well... shame, if not actually name).

A highly conspicuous speedometer-type SID appeared one day last year in a village near us and the primary school head said she'd never known anything so effective. The traffic slowed right down all day. Everyone was enthusing about it. Next day it was gone, never to be seen again.

But they don't collect revenue, you see.

http://www.vasuk.info/fe/default.asp?n1=22&n2=33

I agree. placed in the areas suggested by guron83, VAS signs could be very good.

..

_________________
Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?

The problem with this 'logic' is that worthwhile safety treatments would be wasted on locations that may *appear* to be dangerous, but where history tells us that they are not. Sometimes the appearence of danger increases caution and keeps us safe...

And the special problem for speed cameras is that if you install them where there have been no crashes, then crashes can only go UP, and that's bad for business.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

"Think about the children"

The problem is, outside most schools the time when road safety is most critical is when you're lucky to crawl past at walking pace....

yup... i'm horrified when i pick my better half up from her school at kicking out time (something i avoid doing since i find both the children and most of the staff objectionable!).

kids everywhere under loose control at best, people parked everywhere.. on the yellow zigzags, on the entrances, across the crossing points.. between the traffic islands in the middle of the road

manic

"Everyone" seems to report this sort of chaos at schools but very few injury accidents seem to result.

[/devil's advocate mode on]

So, there is no point in having cameras outside schools. Another apparently critical location crossed off the list.

The question posed in this thread about if there really are any valid locations for speed cameras seems answered.

[/devil's advocate mode off]

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Couldn't you say the point about other, more worthwhile safety measures? Or are you making the point that speed cameras where crashes go up skew the statistics they want us to see?

The latter, yes. Speed cameras are hugely supported by spin.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

You must have read/heard the claims guron...

"It has been shown that accidents reduced by XX% at sites where a camera was placed".

Never a lie spoken, but much deception used.

It's all down to regression to the mean, and even the government concede this now (in the small print!)

I'm with the use of SID and VAS (but not the snotty ones that order you to SLOW DOWN - I want a sign in my window that responds F*CK OFF).

I cannot think of a reason to keep speed cameras anywhere in place of Trafpol. Fining a person as a punishment is as effective as birching them - they just become resentful and grudging where the Law is concerned. I have a clean licence that has remained so since I passed my test 30 years ago, although I have had several roadside chats with the BiB in this time. A sound ticking-off from a copper is far more effective than a summary fine.

Driving past a sign that gives a smiley/frowney or thumb-up/down has been shown to be far more effective than the box-on-a-stick, but doesn't rake in lots of luvverly money to try and bail Gordon out of the sh!t....

_________________
Aquila



Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat...

I can see a use for clearly signposted speed cameras in locations where the road configuration is out of step with the hazard density, for example:

(a) villages on otherwise "fast" A-roads, especially those you can see straight through
(b) wide urban main roads running through shopping streets or dense residential areas

But they should be used very sparingly. "Smiley Sids" are likely to lose their effectiveness in locations where most drivers are locals who will get used to them.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

The speed cameras on the D2 A3024 Bitterne bypass are effective...

... in slowing traffic down to 20mph and creating congestion, even at midnight!

They are also effective in giving speed cameras a bad image...

...along with the local council for putting a 30mph limit on the road...

... and making people dislike Southampton!

I know the ones in Bitterne well. A complete farce.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Now that I'm encountering more SIDs/VASs I'm becoming less enthusiatic than I was a year or so ago. It strikes me that although they're obviously better from the point of view of an individual's wallet, from a road safety point of view they may not be any better than the Gatso forest if abused in the same way. I've lit up a couple of SIDs when I've been travelling below the bloody speed limit (according to GPS), never mind the prosecution threshold. Er, why? Aside from the fact that they're as incapable of telling me whether I'm driving at a safe speed or not as a Gatso is, there seems even less point at warning me I'm speeding when in fact I'm not. There's a couple of VASs that spring to mind. Because these are for specific hazards obviously they've got to light up below the speed limit and in time for the warning to be of use. But too low or too late and the opportunity is wasted. On top of that if the country ends up with SIDs/VASs in similar numbers to fixed cameras, especially where they're not really needed, mightn't drivers start to tune them out regardless of whether they're of real value or crying wolf over a very minor hazard?

I'm sort of half playing devil's advocate and half raising a real concern here. I'm not against them by any means, but then I wasn't against speed cameras when there were only a handful sited in locations where they were really needed.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

It's a damn good point GB, and one that exposes the ignorant belief that enforced reductions in average speeds will lead to fewer accidents, regardless of circumstances.

Height Kills was written a few years ago now, but the message still applies in this case!