Safe Speed Forums

If you can find a flaw in my work, then please point it out. It's all laid out on the web for examination. There's a promise to correct errors if any are discovered. I'll stand by that with a passion.

Finally, I don't dodge questions. If you think I missed something, then please ask me again, but please stick to discussing the issues. Personal attacks are not acceptable.

Since the 1950s, American traffic engineers have been taught the 85th Percentile Rule, which claims that the maximum speed limit on a previously unrestricted road should be set to the speed below which 85% of vehicles are traveling. The 85th percentile closely corresponds to one standard deviation above the mean of a normal distribution. This rule has been used for many years, yet no scientific evidence has been produced that this particular rule is safer than any other.

Soren

So now, having never witnessed my driving, you are assuming that I tailgate in the fast lane? That behaviour has nothing to do with speed -- on busy motorways sometimes the fast lane is full with tailgaters all doing 60 mph. Well within the speed limit, but if one of them makes a mistake, a pile-up is the result

It seems that you still aren't able to grasp the difference between aggressive driving, and normal driving that is simply in excess of the speed limit.

This is the thing that really annoys me about the current road safety policy. Speed is important, definitely -- especially in urban areas. But on motorways and dual carriageways, tailgating is far more dangerous than exceeding the speed limit.

I agree with this orange, most tailgaters don't realise they are doing anything potentially hazardous. It is therefore odd to assert that drivers who routinely make no attempt to obey the speed limit are any different because they aren't They are no more aware of the hazard they are presenting to themselves and others than the mindless tailgater is - they are driving in the same frame of mind - autopilot.

But it's not just the count of cameras is it? It's the official approach to road safety that goes with the cameras. It's policy that changed in 1993 or so, and it's policy that's doing the damage.

Anyway the deviation from former trend is very closely correlated with camera convictions. Have you seen this:

15mph differential is at around the bottom of the optimal range for typical motorway lane widths and circumstances, with 15 to 25mph differential offering minimum danger.

basingwerk - mate --- repeating myself from the other page on this topic --- but we seem to do fine without cameras where I am.

You get your fine's worth from a run-in with us .... acid lecture in road safety and dangers of OTT speeding.....plus a fine sometimes. Sometimes we even insist they spend night in the cells and go to court.... They really get their money's worth then. Bed and breakfast, very strong tea in the morning, cornflakes ... toast the works! What more could you wish for? Admit - the camp bed is a bit worse for wear and the toilet facilities leave a lot to be desired - but still - it is free.....

Guess what - it works! Lowest accident rate in UK, and we do catch and ticket the really bad drivers. We actually target tailgaters, lane hoggers and all those people you dislike so much.

Why on earth should someone who overspeeds by 2mph get a criminal record and someone who pinches something get a fine and no record? The overspeed of 2mph does not cause harm. The pinching of item from a shop - is depriving the shopkkeeper of part of his earnings, his property, hikes up his insurance costs - and we all end up paying for this in form of increased costs for goods. To me - that is crime worthy of a criminal record - and not a trivial overspeed of nonsensical amounts.

Also how can you say that the overspeed of 2mph does not cause harm. What do you define as harm, and what evidence do you have to justify your claim.

Is it also not the case that the shoplifter may be shoplifting to feed a drug habit which his upbringing and enforced social deprivation has led him into. Not a defence particularly, but an understanding of why he does it. I think the motives for the offence of speeding are a tad more selfish.

Could you answer these for me?
If the 85th/90th percentile speed for a road is the speed you believe is the safest, could you evidence this by data based research as my ‘Googlesearch’ you advised brought this up.


Ie I'd like to know why the 50th or 70th percentile speed is deemed less safe.

SafeSpeed Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:22 am

I’ll try best I can to tone down my postings

I do however struggle against some of the more interesting revelations about your psyche, Mr Smith.
As in a recent forum discussion about disabled parking


Had disabled badge some years ago - as it was required for my own wife during a recovery from serious injury. What we noted was so-called other disabled were less than polite - and all too often I found I had to park up in "normal bays" as the not very disabled (ie perfectly firt to work but bone ******** idle brigade) nabbed to spaces. Another thing which my wife noted was that people talked to her very slowly and very loudly and this had nowt to do with her "foreignness"

Sad fact of life that we grant privileges to people who quite frankly do not deserve it as they play the system. These people defraud all us who contribute to welfare system and well as the genuine who really need this help. Thos who defraud are also more likely to belong to the chancers who defraud us all on matter of insurance, and other legal documentation. These are not second class citizens - that term is just too good for them..... I have another - but it would not be appropriate to use here .....



I used to be a member of BRAKE.... as did all members of this family. Whilst we would not undermine nor deny credit in certain areas - such as improving car repair garages and bringing subjects of driving whilst tired, under influence of any kind of drug - precription or illegal - the attitude towards speed leaves a lot to be desired.... I have already touched on what angered us and caused our exit from BRAKE in the past - and it was asking us to participate in a "Speed Kills" campaign and using some photos... and the accidents which hit this family HARD had nothing at at all to do with SPEED! Both were freak non-faults and (the one which killed my wife's cousin) was very similar to the one which killed Mary's mother.

What angers people about Mary is not so much her opinions such as they are - but the way she delivers them - with a certain amount of "gloat and smug" as if she enjoys her 5 minutes of fame on the goggle box. I would have much more time for her if she lost the attitude....and focused her attention on promoting the Green Cross Code, importance of being seen in the dark, and encouraged driver training. She did pour scorn on the "Speed Awareness" course which some offer. Somebody into road safety should be pro this - and I will say that Paul has some sound advice on this site on dealing with tailgaters, braking, etc - and does have a forum which encourages us to discuss safety issues and how best to deal with them. Lot of sound advice on there - and extracts for HC, Road Craft and some advice from a cop. The same actually applies to the PH site - where hatched markings, single carriageway v dual carriageway, winter driving were all discussed in detail by POLICEMEN and ordinary Joes and Josephines even like us....

People have flamed IG, myself and my wife on these fora in the past - but taking a comment (agreed made in bad taste) does not constitute a death threat and to react otherwise leads me to diagnose PMT or MENOPAUSE!

Of course - we should strive to improve the skill here and encourge people to be aware of their drive and get into habit of evaluating each drive objectively. We can only do this if we hammer this instead of tired old dogma about virtues of PC Gatso




Have commented in the past that death rates are increasing in Lancs despite forest of scameras - and not seen that much in crunch reduction overall. Base that on professional knowledge ....

Rigpig Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:20 pm



Precisely, your motorway speeders generally have their brains in neutral. More concentration and awareness is required to drive at 55 to 70 rather than 90. Try it, you’ll realise you have to concentrate to keep the speeders from blocking your progress, - you’re much more all round aware.

What evidence do you have to justify your implicit claim that a 2mph overspeed does cause harm?

Is it also not the case that the shoplifter may be shoplifting to feed a drug habit which his upbringing and enforced social deprivation has led him into. Not a defence particularly, but an understanding of why he does it. I think the motives for the offence of speeding are a tad more selfish.

I have driven at speed of 120 mph in Germany and my wife is usally in excess of this when over there..... (on the deristricted bits of course ....)

Believe me - you have to concentrate hard and be aware of what is coming up even faster behind you in a stealth Merc ....

But in any case old Sorry One in an anorak .... you should be concentrating, observing, anticipating and allowing space and time (for both driving and - er - ) so what speed you drive at.

Mad Mogster - you are an advanced driver and clearly have a lot of experience driving in the UK and abroad as does your good lady.
Unfortunately your own skills and experience don't relate to those of yer average 'thumb in bum' UK driver who generally gives as much thought (I mean conscious sentient thought) to their driving as they do drawing their next breath.
So yes, of course you should concentrate and do all the good stuff, but does Mondeo Man? Not if my experiences of drivers charging up behind traffic that is obviously slowing (brake lights ahead are usually a good sign of this) is anything to go by.

What county is that, In Gear, and what defines lowest accident rates? Is it fataccs per reported accident, accidents per vehicle mile, accidents per road mile, etc?

You are describing your job, which is with respect, what you are paid to do. The camera boys are paid to keep motorists speeds down to the legal limit, the law which you also should be required to administer at least to your ACPO guidelines.

Can you give me your impression of sense of fairness when you hear one person saying that he got a ticket at 42mph in a thirty, fair cop, and another who’s bragging he got off at 44 on the same stretch of road at the same time. Both from our BiB.
Are you entirely comfortable with this discretion lottery?

Interesting euphemism - 'overspeeds'.

To clarify this, In Gear, are you saying that someone who speeds has this registered on the National Criminal Record database so that when you check up someone’s details on the police computer it will highlight this or if you try to get a job where CRB details are requested, your speeding conviction will be there on record. I really didn’t think this was the case.
Additionally are you saying that shoplifting convictions will not be deemed to be criminal, and bypass the CRB?

Also how can you say that the overspeed of 2mph does not cause harm. What do you define as harm, and what evidence do you have to justify your claim.

Is it also not the case that the shoplifter may be shoplifting to feed a drug habit which his upbringing and enforced social deprivation has led him into. Not a defence particularly, but an understanding of why he does it. I think the motives for the offence of speeding are a tad more selfish.

I get a bit of a feeling that your policing doctrine is a little middle class supportive, pandering to those people you like to appeal to.

Perhaps the re-emphasis of offences like shoplifting is being driven to engender a more rounded understanding overview of offences by the police. An understanding of the problems and inclusion of all social classes is important for all society.
It will in the long term probably help your fatacc figures too.

In my case ....

The evidence of actually working in A&E at some stage in my career and conversing and liaising with those guys on regular basis.....

IG will no doubt give you his take on this - from mopping up accidents....

Rigpig - they nearly killed him on PH when he told a BiB that he must have been driving too close if he nearly ended up in car in front.

I am going to start up a thread on this anyway.....as Soren and basingwerk and my mate - Will - (who really believes I cannot drive ) exploit it to the full.

As for the Mad Cats' driving abilities - they really are quite good drivers....

SafeSpeed Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:22 am

I?ll try best I can to tone down my postings

I do however struggle against some of the more interesting revelations about your psyche, Mr Smith.

I guess the red columns could apply to the increase in numbers of big macs sold since 1993, and the increase in numbers of fatalities could be caused by people speeding to macdonalds to get there before it closes.

SafeSpeed Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:22 am
Could you answer these for me?
If the 85th/90th percentile speed for a road is the speed you believe is the safest, could you evidence this by data based research as my ?Googlesearch? you advised brought this up.

Ie I'd like to know why the 50th or 70th percentile speed is deemed less safe.

Could you also let me know if your definition of the 85th/90th percentile speed as the safest means that you would not advocate any speed above this on the basis that it is by definition less safe?