Safe Speed Forums

You think people brake properly? Hah! In an old motor magazine I read that a whopping 90-% of all road accident ist down to this.

So ist braking - smooth braking a forgotten art?

Or should this be elevated to the "must have" skill?

The one which mean that in the emergency - your emergency stop does not lock the wheels, screech the wheels or soin you somewhre you definitely do not want to go.

Usually - been told that I should brake to slow the car..where engine braking or a hill will not do this for me "on automatic"

Normally if I do brake ist on the straights - just before the bend but not into it if I have to do so.

But what ist the art of perfection we should be aiming towards.... to evaluate und work on und bring to perfect?

Ist being in a car where passenger does not notice the loss of speed, the gentle transmission from pwer-on to brakes-on und then the equally smooth transistion from brakes-on to power-on with no jerk - not even a trace of one!

Ist "feather-fed braking" und ist a developed skill which we develop with practice und as experience grows to some extent too. But ist still a consciously developed skill und one which I think ist lacking today when you sit at roadside und just observe.

Ist a skill which help the COAST und hazard perception - I think. If you are consciously thinking of how you brake und when you brake - you then perhaps begin to focus more und move to this elusive "relaxed consentration" which IG talks of (I have never felt him brake of accelerate ...he give a nice ride - I do not have to pray! )

Ist also developing timing too.

So - do you think your passsenger feel you braking und accelerating? They are the one to ask as you will not necessarily "feel" this. Happen occasionally - ist one of the thing we think of when we evaluate our drives - what cause the jerky? Was it a lapse? How was it lapse? Why was it a lapse?



und

So what do you do when going up a steep hill. Bearing in mind car on the up gradient will be slowing normally) ist "automatic" But you do not want the car to stop or labour ... so for me I choose the gear which will take me all the way up without stressing the engine und all the time watching the moving limit points.. but on the descent? .


Ist to discuss

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Interesting post Wildcat.

Because of some EU emissions crap my engine is reluctant to throttle back. Consequently, I have very little engine braking. In fact, I have the worst engine braking of all the cars I've ever had.

This means I need to use the brakes quite a lot.

I like to strike a balance between having the brake lights lit up for a good time and not cooking the brakes. Because of the fast road pads I have they are slightly slower than normal to provide a lot of friction. This means I need to heat them up before I get good power.

Normally I can't use anything like maximum braking as there's usually some pathetic little hatchback on tiny little narrow tyres glued to my back bumper during the commuter traffic. If I were to apply any force to my brakes the said little car would be straight into me...... (my personal hatred of driver in crap cars tailgating relatively high performance cars which can stop in half the distance the tail gater needs is for another day though)

My father has had someone run into the back of his car no less than 19 times since 1985. Some of these are self induced (he tends to over-react a lot and close followers hit him) and others are completely courtesy of other people (eg driver looking in carpark for his mate and failed to notice us at red light - twice).

I've learned from my father's misfortune that to protect my car I need to brake at a constant deceleration when in traffic so that the close followers can judge my deceleration better.

Apart from that, I still see drivers ahead of me braking round the apex of corners (expecially annoying when it's to the extent that I must brake round the apex to avoid hitting them - again it's usually the jelly suspension hatchback entering the corner at speeds firmer cars don't have to worry about).

Of course with FWD braking into the corner can be useful to weight up the front wheels to prevent understeer. Having said that, it's one of these techniques which is better kept on the track because on the public highway there are simply too many risks and unknowns to use such techniques habitually.

It is in my opinion at least, one of those tricks to keep up your sleeve in case you make a goof one day. Such skills kept in reserve make the difference between the driver upside down in a field and the driver who says "that was a bit too close".

I suspect though that to teach such techniques as left-foot braking in mandatory driver training would result in numbskull's trying to use it on a daily basis - a bit like skid pan training.

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Maybe he could get a job as a chauffeur?

I have a diesel car - my wife has a petrol, so I get to compare one with the other.
My driving is now diesel adapted and my braking is a lot smoother. When in the petrol (which I only drive under protest!) I find pulling away harder, because I tend to stall it if I dont use more throttle than I am used to. That said, in either car I can go for long distances without having to use the brakes at all, even when behind a tourist on the A592 Newby Bridge road!

I DO use a light brake when in traffic so as to indicate to drivers behind that I have lifted off the throttle, and am slowing - but only if circumstances demand it - car behind is close, or his view of potential hazard/traffic ahead of me obstructed.

I am certain too many drivers do not know how to use ABS, and simply stand as hard as possible on the pedal when in fact a simple press until you feel it ripple under your foot, is just as effective as having it judder severely.
I would be interested to see if this varies from one manufacturer to another though.

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this is not true. ABS systems pulse more rapidly the harder you push the pedal, or put another way, the harder you push the faster you stop.

From what I see on the roads everyday there are lots of drivers who do adopt a jerky style of driving - reducing speed a bit too late and having to brake harder than necessary, or perhaps braking when simply getting off the gas would have done. And sometimes one of them is me, if I've got the road to myself and am in a hurry. Getting there quickly becomes more important than getting there smoothly, so rather than coming off the gas in time to lose enough speed to get round the bend without using the brakes I might well brake hard before the bend and hoof it right after.

Could this be a reason for it appearing like a forgotten art? I'd be prepared to bet that the vast majority of drivers could adopt a very smooth driving style given the right motivation. I'm not actually suggesting we try this but imagine how driving style, especially braking, would change if the driver had a large cup of very hot takeaway coffee between the legs. A very strong motivation for as smooth a ride as humanly possible I'd have thought. I wonder how many could do it on a route consisting of a variety of roads, turns and gradients. Most or all here I imagine, and perhaps a majority drivers overall. Sure some would leave it in first and crawl the whole way, but slow don't mean smooth does it? Could still turn things a little warm for them.


In the absence of traffic ahead and assuming no emergency is there ever any reason for applying the brakes going up a hill? If I have to do that I feel it means I hit the bottom of the hill too fast and give myself a mental black mark.


Spilling no coffee at all but attaining normal road speeds?


Good one. Mrs GB said that her IAM observer expected something along these lines. Told Mrs GB that with her eyes closed (the observer, not Mrs GB ) she shouldn't be able to tell when Mrs GB was braking/accelerating or changing gear. I reckon listening to the engine would tell you even if you couldn't see what was going on, but I like the idea as an ideal standard to aim for.


What's feather fed braking? Never heard the term and I think I need to find out if this is something I was taught with a different name, or learnt to do anyway, or a skill I need to acquire. I don't want to assume it does exactly what it says on the tin so a brief explanation would be appreciated.


Oh yes mwahahahahahaha Seriously, depends who I ask and when. Mrs GB sometimes complains that my driving is jerky, and sometimes does not. But I can say the same thing about hers. Again I think this is down to the needs of the journey. For example, say we're approaching a ruondabout with plenty of visibility on the other approaches, which allows us to see that there will be a gap for us shortly but at our current speed we're going to miss it and have to stop. Neither of us are above dropping a gear and giving it a burst of acceleration to get there in time, which in turn is more likely to mean that we'll have to brake a bit harder. Equally if there is no real need to do so we're both as likely to go for the smooth and early braking. However, if you ask the out-law we both drive like psychos, but frankly we're in a no win situation with someone who thinks any speed much above hard jogging pace is a bit risky.


There are three I have to do several times a week each. Can't recall ever braking on any of them. Like you said, right speed at the bottom and gear(s) on the way up. Shouldn't need to use the brakes at all unless traffic ahead comes to a stop. Still got to bear in mind other hazards though. One of those hills has several driveways and sooner or later I'm likely to have to brake for someone coming out who didn't see me coming.


Am I misreading you there? Sounds like you choose a single gear. Always? Just that one of those hills I mentioned is a 5th-4th-3rd ascent for me. The cab won't go all the way up in the higher gears. Should I be in 3rd at the bottom? But that would mean hitting the bottom rather more slowly and could seem anti-social to anyone following, or a merciless caning for the engine. Would I be better off starting in 4th at higher revs and doing a single gear change on the way up? Think I'll try this next time anyway.

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I nearly gathered a megane into my boot lid at the weekend. Some old duffer on an nsl dawdling along at 35-40. I was in the close following position but then he decided he was going to turn left, one indicator flash, on with the brakes and a 90 degree turn into his driveway. I misjudged where he was turning and realised it wasn't into the road further up but the drive way right in front of him. I had to brake sharply but managed to slip into second and keep moving while hearing a squeal of brakes from behind as the megane driver came to a complete halt.

I don't think he hit me. Old git woke us both up though! I wonder how many times the old bloke has seen people run into each other just outside his house.... I am sure I have seen him before nearly catch someone out as I was in the megane's position but saw the guy was going to turn so started slowing before the guy in front had quite realised what was going to happen.

It is certainly right about accidents being caused by inattention had I been a bit more lert I don't think I would have needed to brake quite so harshly. I had also been caught out by someone in a polo seemingly bimbling along about 50. They also bimbled round some tight bends which I normally take more slowly than that. Bit over the white line as I realised the bend requires much more steering input when one is doing 50 rather than 40 or 45. Ooops. He must have been laughing his bottom off.

I have also decided I must remember to closely follow from further away in future too

I wasn't aware of any variation in the "pulse rate" of ABS, but I fully agree with this advice for the following reason:

ABS will typically only cut in on just one or two channels to start with, as one wheel runs over a patch of low grip, eg a bit of loose gravel or mud in the nearside of the road. But meanwhile the other wheels still have bags of grip available which can be exploited by braking harder. If you employ the "traditional" technique of backing off the brakes when you feel a reaction then you'll end up only braking to the limit of the wheel with least grip, rather than to the limit of the wheel with most grip.

It seems completely alien to anyone brought up to "proper" brakes, but the correct response to an emergency situation in an ABS equipped car is to stand on the brake pedal and keep it there until you stop.

Nor should you brake progressively, as you would in a non-ABS car, in order to maximise weight transfer. ABS will prevent the initial "light-load" wheel lock that can cost you car lengths of braking in a normal car, so again the correct approach is just to give it plenty!

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Yes, I have to say the pulse rate is a new one on me too! Certainly my car doesn't do it. Other than that, I agree with everything JT says. Here in Cumbria, I'm still in the position of chiding myself for not using it properly! I drive a lot on single track roads with grass on either side. Many of them are quite steep too. I'm frequently in the situation where I'm going down hill and I have to brake and / or pull over to the left as someone comes the other way - even at relatively low speeds (20 or 30). The wheels on the grass lock up pretty much instantly. The pedal starts pulsing and my instinct is to lift off - despite the fact that the wheels still on the tarmac have lots more to contribute! I keep trying to train myself NOT to do this!!!!!! It's never been a problem but one day, I might have to do it in an emergency and the truth is, my car's system has been designed for numpties so it has been done with the EXPECTATION that the brake pedal will be applied fast and hard and not modulated. When it sees this happening, it goes into "stop-as-quickly-as-possible" mode and that's what it would do if I kept my foot on the pedal. As I lift off, it assumes the panic is over. There was a lot of talk about how a properly trained driver could stop quicker without ABS in the days when ABS first came out but systems have moved on a lot since then. Now, I think it's just best to plant the pedal and leave the computers to get the best out of each wheel. (I just can't make myself do it!)

it's not something that I could feel but you can certainly see the difference in stopping distances. At the course I did they were saying that, at least on the various bmws we were driving, it will start at (and these figures are hazy as it was a few years ago) 4 cycles per second and build up to 12 cycles per second.

But is it just a Beemer thing or is it common to all ABS systems to a some extent? And since you're going to get the best out of it in an emergency by standing on the brakes anyway what's the benefit?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I have no idea why it works this way, hopefully one of our techies will explain it.

It's not true that high performance cars can always stop more quickly. From the sort of speeds where queues tend to form i.e. 50-60 mph most modern cars can achieve fairly close to 1G on a dry road. The only difference is that high performance cars can do it more times before the brakes fade and they can stop more quickly from high speeds. The reason is the same in both cases - high performace brakes get rid of the heat more quickly and continue to work at higher temperatures.

well presumeably the faster your processor is running at the more refined you can make your control.... so why you'd run slower at one time than another i'm not sure.

ok, I've discovered one possible reason. On surfaces where you want your brakes to lock, a slower cycling rate is preferable as the wheels stay locked for longer. Thoughts?

I've been thinking about this - the harder the pedal pressure the quicker it is to relock the wheel and the faster the cycle time - so I reckon it's simple...

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That's half of it. the other half of it is that the kickback is a constant force (well, one of two forces depending on whether it is kicking off fronts or a back). for the feathering person, the kick off is further too - so not only will it take longer to relock due to less pressure, but also longer due to having more slack to take up having been knocked off further.

The moral? If you need to stop sharply in an ABS car, plant the pedal as hard as reasonably practicable.

Whilst I fully agree about the brakes of modern cars - I have little confidence in entry-level car's traction. Not so much when new and equipped with OEM tyres, but certainly as the car ages and brake pads are replaced with the cheapest the owner can find, and the premium brand tyres replaced one at a time with cheap budget tyres.

Having said that, it's not usually brand new cars I have "on tow" - it is infact usually mid-aged cars which are externally in poor condition - faded paintwork etc. I may be over generalising, but if someone can't be arsed to wash their car once in a while and apply a wax or polish once a year, then there's a lesser chance they'll fork out good money for top-end tyres and brake pads.

Either way, I'm still much less comfortable with the thought of a teenage girl in a Ford Ka right up my backside than I am with, say, a BMW M3.

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I wouldn't trust anyone. Last time I was getting tyres fitted to my car a guy pulls up in a shiny new jag. "Got any retreads, mate?"

Now that's worrying. I'm a firm believer that cheap tyres are a false economy. Been there, done that, made the insurance claim.

Tyres are the only thing that have any say over the speed and direction of the vehicle. Their quality and condition is absolutely paramount.

Some people eh??

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