Safe Speed Forums

During the last week on the road I realised another road safety consequence of truck speed limiters.

On motorways and dual carriageways, with most vehicles most of the time, lane changes are utterly predictable. You notice one vehicle closing on another, and most of the time you know that they are going to change lane long before the indicator comes on. This is helpful.

But it simply doesn't work with trucks these days - and I realised why. The speed limiter makes truck speeds similar, so...

a) It's much harder to spot any differential speed that will lead to a lane change.

b) Even when you CAN see a differential speed, the speed difference is small. This means that the time window within which the lane change will take place is MUCH larger.

So truck lane changes are far less predictable than they should be. This is a serious concern because it's much harder to make yourself safe from the risks associated with sideswipe. It's also a nuisance because it makes it much harder to avoid being obstructed by an elephant race.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Another thing I notice trucks doing is tailgating the truck in front of them just prior to an overtake (and I mean SERIOUSLY tailgating them).

I know they do it in order to build up as much speed as possible using the slipstream, but I am surprised that we don't have more accidents than what we currently do.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

sounds like an uncontroversial comment to me SS....

which is why where possible i hang back until i can clear a truck in one go.

Sorry. A total fallacy.

However, I would agree that some get too close. Far too close.

On the other hand, if everyone moved out at the two second separation point, and then continued past until having achieved a two second separation before pulling in, with only a 2mph speed differential, the time/distance taken would be................I'll let someone else work that out.

The difference is that 'Professional' drivers actually trust most of their colleagues. Although I could probably cite on a daily basis, the antics of some idiot, for the most part, everyone helps each other out, whether by positioning in the lane so that someone following behind has a (limited) view ahead, or simply slowing earlier when there is a closely following vehicle. After all, within certain sectors, he might even be going to the same destination and we finish up on adjacent bays, or parked up together overnight. The job is hard enough without generating animosity amongst colleagues.

What people fail to realise is the effect of a gradient on even a moderately laden artic. On the M40 N/B, and I'm not talking about 'Guano Gulch', even the stretch between the A40 exit to Oxford and the exit to Oxford Services, is enough to gain 4 or 5 miles an hour. Similarly with the N/B approach to Warwick Services, and there is another location near Gaydon that is the same. In a car, most people wouldn't even notice that there was a gradient.

Stop a car on a 1 or 2 per cent gradient, and the Rolling Resistance of the tyres will probably hold it stationary. Put 30+ tonnes on that same gradient, and it will soon start moving, and rapidly.

Assessing the relevant weight differences between vehicles is not difficult. Broadly speaking, an empty refrigerated artic is two tonnes heavier than an empty curtain sider, and the curtain sider will normally be taller and offer greater wind resistance. Lift axles, when raised, normally indicates an empty or partially laden vehicle. Curtains bulging at the sides suggest that a load is being carried. The clues are there. You just have to learn them.

And no longer can the VRM be relied upon as an indication as to whether the vehicle is LHD or RHD. Typically, many of the Irish hauliers, who specialise in Continental work, will buy LHD. Ralph Davies, black units, has a mixture of LHD and RHD, all UK registered. Stobarts, with their mixture of UK and non UK registered vehicles, has both LHD and RHD vehicles registered elsewhere.

The only sure way to know is to look for the 'Overhead' or downward facing mirror. It will always be on the opposite side of the vehicle to the driver.

to be honest SS, a lot of that risk falls on the trucker. personally, instead of going for an overtake with a slightly slower truck, i will watch both his speed and my own on flat, uphill and downhill to find out where my biggest advantage is and that is when i will overtake to reduce inconvenience to anyone behind (and because i dont want to be in the middle lane any longer than necessary). with this in mind, coming up behind me, you may expect me to pull out when i close on the truck in front but i wont unless its too far to the next hill/flat. any considerate trucker will be unpredictable but they should either pull out when clear or give ample warning and wait for a flash.
incidentally, i dont wait until the last minute to assess this, i do it from at least 100 yards before the back of his wagon

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
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unfortunately, that breed seems more and more scarce although to be fair, i did accumulate around 1500 miles between 0100 saturday morning and 1600 sunday afternoon one weekend. return trip from southampton to Stirling in a transit and southampton - Stirling in my car. observations revealed that south of manchester, every trucker flashed me in with the transit, very few from there to the border then around half the truckers north of the border. i spent most of the journey sitting at 60 - 65 (so cars can pass but trucks dont need to) and i was impressed. its nice to see so many courteous truck drivers on the road

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
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scanny77 - interesting - i usually drive a hi top ,lwb Transit and find that HGV do tend to flash me in and out , will give me plenty of warning of coming out for an overtake , if i'm in L2 . will make room for me when joining the motorway, even though my acceleration is a lot more than theirs and top speed about 30 + more. Past few nights i've been driving a Fiesta, nippier ,etc, lot more blind spots than transit, but more pull outs in front of me, especially on almost empty motorways, no flashes in or out.
In short - traeted like a car, although i try and treat HGV as usual.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

i will put my hands up to similiar behaviour. i normally flash vans in especially with trailers but i dont bother with cars. for me personally, its about mutual respect between vocational drivers. the average car driver is a divvy though (no disrespect to anyone here) so why bother flashing them in when they can see anyway?

i got sod all in my car too but i expected that

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
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Also the speed differential between trucks and cars tends to be greater, so flashing becomes less necessary.

I was going to say all those things, but now I don't need to. Cheers!

What people have to remember is that us flashing each other in is an unwritten rule. Its something we do although if they actually teach you not to do it. reasons i do it is this :-

1. I would rather flash another lorry in than he guess wrong and side swipe me with his trailer.
2. It makes his life easier because he knows that he is clear and can pull in especially in poor visibility.
3. By flashing him in it gets the second lane clear quicker.

At the end of the day it makes everbodies day a lot easier.

As too other vehicles i dont flash cars unless they have flashed me out when overtaking. That is a courteous thing, but generally i dont bother. they have a rear view mirror and if they can see me in that they are clear.

Cars and caravans i will flash in because most of the time they flash us in.

Which brings us to our van drivers. Now with you guys it is pot luck. Whyi hear you ask the reason is simple. If you notice when a lorry gets flashed in the driver that has been flashed always says thanx usually with a quick flash of the indicators. They dont have to be we do its a nice thing to do. Now with the van drivers ( not all of you ) this tends to not happen. So usually i start the day doing it but when i get 4 - 5 vans not bother then i think well why bother and stop doing it. Its a case of a few mucking it up for the majority. Usually though before the end of the day i start flashing them in again.

I can't help but notice if he does the latter... you won't have flashed him yet

I was doing a Delivery in a LGV with a new assistant to help with the unloading when he noticed I flashed and was flashed he asked what it was all about.

I said it was a simple curtsy

He said that was a bit daft as no one flashed in cars

I pointed out that a trailer in the face for some one misjudging the distance is also a bit daft but one helps stop the other.


What I have found nice if a little irrelevant is good vehicles flashing me when on the bike. Still it is always nice to see people have seen you and I endeavour to give them a little thank you nod or wave.

As a car drvier, on the rare (but defintely measureable) occasions when a lorry is overtaking me, I always flash him in. It has, I think, always been acknowledged. This used to be done with tail lights, but is more often these days done with the left-right-left winks.

and yet the general public see us as being the most inconsiderate drivers on the road

there are some out there who will not thank you for it. they dont thank us in trucks so what chance would a car driver have of receiving a courteous 'thanks'? every job has its clowns

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

I think that's yet another case of the few spoiling it for the many, I see far far more good considerate truckies than I do the utter knobs, but somehow the knobs are more memorable, if you see what I mean.

I wonder if they really do? Or is it just a few vocal idiots?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

that seems to apply to everything though. a good deed is soon forgotten but step out of line and it can haunt you for years.
cock up at work, 3 month warning. when do you ever see a 3 month appraisal? i think human nature is a bit one sided where this type of thing is concerned

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
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The flashing thing is interesting. I'll usually flash trucks out, or get out of the way if I can see them likely to want to overtake soon.

I had quite a few of them flashing me back in on the way home today. Is this courtesy or because I'm still out there in L3 causing a queue (by only doing 70) and don't want to pull into the trucks stopping distance.

This was when driving the Legacy, not a van or anything.