Safe Speed Forums

To add something else to the mix, the helmet standards do not take into account being hit by a motor vehicle/ accident being caused by impact with motor vehicle.

Most of the offs I've had have been by drivers hitting me from the side or rear, normally hitting my rear wheel, most of these I've ended up on the car holding on to stop from going under car.

Can't remeber who did the study but there was an intesting idea that car drivers gave less space and were more inclined to squeeze past cyclists with a helmet than those without as they were considered 'more experienced', is this not a negative safet impact ???

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

This week's CW covers the story. It seems the BMA is pro-compulsion - and its members divided. Mad Doc wears a helmet....(he says he cannot tell his kids to do so if he's not seen doing so himself ) but can see the other side of the coin and Mike, Kriss, Marianna and Klaril are deeply pro-helmets.

Well it seems Australian statistician .. Dorothy Robinson ... has come up with statistics...


She reckons wearing a helmet discourages cycling.. people see it as "dangerous"

Hmmm! Admit I did not like my helmet at first... but you kind of miss it when you get to wear a nicely decorated cap.

I'm used to wearing a helmet when I cycle... and don't really see this as "scary!" Not really met many who admit to this either. Then again.. don;t meet that many who like speed cams....

Come to that .. don't find that many people liking me and the lads and lasses larking around either Oooh 'eck! - those C roads up here..

She also finds that the helmets have not reduced head injuries that much either...


She says that we get skewed and misleading results by relying on inappropriate and misleading statisitcal models..


How true... we appear to have built an entire road safety policy on this.

However.. funny how this "expert" gets something so basic so completely wrong and the pro will agree and the anti - mpb will tear her limbe for limb ( Mad Cats told me that had an "attack of the furballs" over it.. )



Um... little work in your ear in case you lurk 'ere

we already do.. they are called speed cams... and some quaint old fashioned areas still use real policemen too .. and where they use the real policemen . .. we don't jusrt nab dangerous drivers.. we nab dangerous cyclists who flout the traffic laws as well .


By the way .. around here .. if we see a driver pass too close to a cyclist whatever he's or she's wearing.. we will have words...

If cyclist is wearing flip flops .. we will also have a word ....


Personally .. though .. I llike my helmet... keeps my head dry and squashed insect free.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Speaking of lids.. CW reviews LAS - chosen lid of the Bianchi and Unibet teams.

Hailed as "futuristic in design." They claim it's aerodynamic - they tested it in a wind tunnel!

(Not against the kerb then.. )

Apparently you can remove the polystyrene, wash all the padding and replace both padding and polystyrene.

Costs £90...

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Hi all. New member here.
I always wear a helmet. I had an accident on some tramlines a few years back (entirely my own fault... ) where I went over the handlebars at about 20 mph and into a fence headfirst. The fence is still bent and every time I go past I think "hey, I did that with my head" . I don't like to think how it would have been without my helmet; as it was I picked my bike up (undamaged) and carried on, stopping only to buy a new helmet as my old one was in three pieces. I still have a huge scar on my shoulder but that's better than brain damage.
That said, I think "helmets good, compulsion bad" is a good way to sum up my position.

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the kerb.

As a true englishman, I hoped you attempted to do this in as blase a way as possible, as if you didn't care.

That has got to be the lamest argument I have ever heard.

I am pro-choice (and that goes for motorcycling as well)

It is interesting that some of the arguments for pro-cycle helment for and against are the same as those used for motorcycle helmets. (BTW are Sikhs still exempt because of religeous headware?)

If the same logic follows then it is only a matter of time before cycle helmets WILL become compulsary.

On a technical not I think the actual design of cycling helmets is pathetic. My daughter has a horse riding helmet. I cannot see why a cycling helmet should be any less substantial than that. You may as well but some bubble-wrap on you head.

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Speed camera policy Kills

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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?

Why bother? The way that some cyclists flout the law would suggest that there's nothing inside their skulls worth protecting.
The Highway Code states that cyclists MUST wear cycle helmets.

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Anyone who tells you that nothing is impossible has never bathed in a saucer of water.

Not so, I'm afraid. The Highway code is online, you can check it yourself.

The argument goes - make cycling look dangerous and fewer people will do it. What is missed about the helmet debate is that it is not just about people heads, it is also about the overall health of the population.

On average cyclists live longer and are healthier than non-cyclists. If you reduce the number of cyclists in the population you reduce the overall health of the nation (unless they take up other aerobic sport). You save the occasional life, but you build up health problems for the future. There is a balance that is not there with seatlbelts, airbags etc. The argument is absolutely not the same as for motorbikes. Motorbikes have no effect on the health of the individual riding the bike.

Helmets make it more likely that you will hit your head, since they make your head bigger and heavier. As has been posted earlier, there is evidence that drivers drive closer to riders with helmets as they perceive them to be more experienced.

Helmets may also make the rider take more risks. Much as seat-belts may...

As I said before - anti-compulsion, pro choice and very, very anti ignoramuses...

I was not going to respond but I cannot let this one go.

Ar you seriously now trying to say that seat belts don't save lives and make drivers take more risks?

Oh so - I suppose I should tell my wife and the kids not to fasten any belts then. as this will mean I will drive every so fast and risk their lives

Regardless of the hype - you stop your car these days and you do stop pretty sharpish. If you and passengers are not belted and you hit the brakes hard - you hit the screen. Hit brakes hard on modern bike 0- you go over the bars.

Oh - don't believe me..- come up here during the "seatbelt" campaign or our two wheely months - we'll give you a real treat ... learning what can happen to you.

I wear a helmet - it does not make me want to change from secondary to primary without looking.

Lot of decent light weight but strong helmets around too - so it does not necessarily "make your head heavier" and Krissi's horsey riding lid weighs a lot more than her cycling one.

If I drive past a car or a horse - they get SPACE. I follow one principle on approach to a chicane... bike and car do not go into one at the same time!

Helmets are part of the gear .. the cool image. Keeps my head dry too.


But person on the bike has to know how to handle the bike - just as the driver does.

I was handed a helmet when I went for a walk through How Stean with Kriss last week It did not make me want to climb the cliffs of this gorge.

I do not feel a track or rally drive I may do is dangerous because I wear the gear and a harness - not when I go on a winter holiday did I feel my life in danger because I used a lid on the bob run - and just cos I wore a life jacket when on that jet ski thing did not make me want to play tag out at sea with a rather large looking "shark" which turned out to be a dolphin...

So perhaps then -basically - am saying it's down to attitude of the person as to how safe he rides or drives. There are ways of mitigating an off anyway.

There is no more proof that wearing a lid will make you head meet the ground first any more than the helmet will lessen the impact (as this doss depend on other criteria anyway ) Just as there does not appear to be any concrete evidence that a forest of speed cams stop KSI given the similarity of the stats.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

..

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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?

Unless helmets weigh nothing and have no thickness then they make your head heavier and larger. Full Stop. Unless the rules of physics have changed since I was at school?

Actually comparing with speed cameras and seatbelts and motorcycles is a tangent - for the simple reason that riding a bike regularly will, on average, extend your life through better fitness by about 5 years.

So there are two sides to the safety argument, not one. That is what the pro-compulsion people miss completely, they only look at the death-of-a-cyclist-once-in-25,000-years-of-average-riding, not the average-of-five-years-extra-life.

Compel helmet wearing, reduce the number of cyclists, worsen the average health of the nation. This has to be balanced against the small proportion of the 130 cyclist deaths a year that can be proven to be down to head injuries (most deaths are due to thoracic crush injuries etc., not head).

Similarly the "I wore a helmet, fell off Tower Bridge onto the cobbles and survived, therefore ALL CYCLISTS should wear a helmet" point is as stupid as saying "I knew a friend of a friend of a friend that was burned to death in a car because they had seat belts on therefore I'll never wear a seatbelt."

Excitable people look at individuals and make laws.
Logical people look at the whole population and make laws.

We shall have to see how much logic there is in government today.

It's extremely difficult to prove that that is the case. Even if we have enough data to prove that regular cyclists live longer on average, it may equally be that fitter healthier people are more likely to cycle.

You would have to do one hell of a big trial to prove the case one way or the other.

Unless you know of a trial?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm pretty sure that surveys of fitness have been done. Whether the cyclists were always cyclists or were fit anyway, I don't know.

What I do know is that I lost over a stone in a few months when I went back to cycling after a long break, (when you take into account muscle gain - this is probably nearer 2 stone) and I've heard this experience repeated many times with other cycling returnees.

I wouldn't waste my time and money in a sweaty gym looking at the escalator that carries the fat bastards up to the exercise floor . I don't play any team sports. I don't run as I have knee problems.

I can get fit whilst at the same time going places, often faster than I would get there by car. If helmets were made compulsory I'd carry on until the number of fixed penalty tickets got me, or some stupid contributory negligence case changed insurance arrangements. Then I'd cost everyone more as I got fatter and use up NHS resources.

Helmet compulsionists seem to be rabid anti-cyclists, well meaning but ill-informed do-gooders, or those that are unable to see the big picture.

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Pro-choice, anti-compulsion.

We are designed to move our bodies. We were never really designed to be on wheels or fly. But being human and a bit impatient - we've always wanted to go a bit faster!
Horse riding is very demanding physically. You are using all your muscles to control the horse. Kriss is our serious horse rider- does side saddle, American and traditional.

Apparently per Kriss - when she rides her horse - she's using her shoulder and upper body muscles on the rein and her thighs and calf muscles to help steer and move the horse forwards and backwards and around corners. I have a video footage of her showing off her American style - different saddle and rein system and she reckons the horse is more responsive using this type of ride. Can only go off what she says as the only riding I've done is the normal occasional stuff.

But she reckons that if you want to add many years to your life - ride an 'oss

Take up ski-ing - this also uses the same muscles to control the body - and you get to go fast too!

She reckons she should live forever on reading your post just now, given she also rides a bike, skis and has a job which demands both mental and phsyical stamina from her. (She's visiting me this week - am in for a hard weekend as she's looking at my ride book for a "challenge! got a bit of a respite as she's gone out with my wife - but have Mike at my ear muttering about the seatbelt comment! -)

Mike reckons some people who work out at the gym will sometimes graduate to a bike once they have gained some fitter stamina from the gyms. He does have patients to whom he he recommended physiotherapy to initiate recovery from any surgery - and from there rehab centres and some basic gym based stuff.

Emma Davies Jones is featured in CW this week (actually it's the same pieces - Ted posted up from the Manchester paper) - but basically she used the gym to get back to some of her form and she still has a way to go before the Worlds - and we are rooting for her. Strong minded and determined woman - she's the same type as Wildy and a rare breed.





A lot like to get fit in the gym first as they do not want to ride somewhere and find they are too tired to make the return. That's something which I did mention in planning a great day out on the bike. You have to really know just how far you can go - bearing in mind you have to make the return trip. Many start off on the spinners to get the feel of riding and nothing wrong with using these to develop the up hill stamina anyway.

We all attend a gym - Wildy and Mad Doc quite enjoy the Yoga/Pilates classes and my wife's partial to water aerobics and I like the whirl pool/hydrotherapy thing where the water gives me a work out and I don't have to do anything

My wife sasy the water exercises are designed for folk with knee problems and that it's "a sort of Yoga meets aerobics meets water,"

Mad Doc plays golf and rugby - I play golf and football. We occasionally play tennis - but we end up - inevitably - with a tiff over whether or not the ball was "in" But team sports develop "team work" and why they are beneficial. What I like about golf is that I can play in a team and alone as well.




I just do not understand the argument. I find my helmet keeps me dry and I rather wipe dead flies off my helmet than wash them out of my hair. (Istill have a full head.. and not too many grey hairs either ... )




Funny - you could say the same about the one visioned variety of pro-cam folk!

But somehow I think those motivated towards exercise and already into some kind of exercise will tend to use bikes as an additional form of exercise - but most cannot commute due to the long hours cultures, cost of moving house, and policy of recruiting from outside localities as well.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

As said - look at our site for our next "seatbelt month" - and drive around without one. You will be nabbed as this is a police controlled and not a scam controlled area - and we "have nothing better to do" of course !


You will be treated to that stats and some graphic consequences of not wearing one.. We do it in photos! You will also be shown some stats showing before and after compulsion.

As for folk killed outside the vehicles.... we have - and still have - some kind of reluctance on the part of some to get acquainted with the Green Cross Code. Also - people can be pre-occupied with something.. in 1982 we had the Walkman craze .. today the i-pod, mobile phones, much busier and more hectic work pressures - all carry a potential risk of tragic absent-minded error.

Of course - we always had drugs and drunks featuring in all the stats as well - and this is one other problem which I do not think will ever be fully resolved.

We have a blitz-krieg policy as norm here on targeting suspected drink/drug riders/drivers. During campaign month - we are painfully merciless - media blasts and even more spot checks.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Cross Country skiing, maybe.

However neither horse-riding nor skiing provide the level of aerobic exercise for the cardiovascular system that cycling provides.

I understand horse riding is rather expensive....skiing too...(not many ski runs that I can walk to)

There's always swimming!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I like to think that I can spot in the metaphorical milisecond the difference between a seasoned/proficient cyclist and a newbie. there are telltale signs. It is not 100% conclusive and, sadly, it is usually false neagative than false positives in my case (ie a misdiagnosis of a cyclist as experienst when in truth they are novice). Over the years, I think my false negatives are fewer and further between. however, that could be because I now live out in the sticks and the only newbies I come across in everyday life are the infants in our road!

I think on balance L plates would be a good thing though - particularly to give the head's-up to those in motor vehicles who have yet to acquire the ability to spot the subtle nuances.