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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 19:25 
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Rigpig wrote:
However, its the moral corrosion and respect erosion element I'm centering in on just now.
If we are challenging something as serious as the current regime of enforcement of speed limits then I want to be absolutely certain in my own mind that we're doing so for the right reasons and have left no stone unturned.
Its very easy, when pursuing a single issue, to lose sight of the bigger picture and the effect ones actions in one domain might have in another.


Equally, any system of law enforcement must have due regard for "the bigger picture and the effect [that] actions in one domain might have in another"; and that's exactly what the present system fails to do.

The present system of speed enforcement subverts due process. The following is an extract from the defence arguments I prepared for a speeding case which I defended last year.

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45. The burden of due process - the requirement to gather evidence, identify and interview witnesses, collate statements and exhibits, prepare and present the case in court, all to the applicable evidential and procedural standards - operates as a natural tensioner in all areas of law, both criminal law and civil law. This tension tends to ensure that legal proceedings are only commenced and continued where the damage suffered is sufficently serious to justify the financial and other costs of discharging the due process burden. The tension of due process clearly applies to civil law but it also applies to criminal law where the prosecution must judge, in any given case, whether the seriousness of the offence, the cost and difficulty of bringing the case to trial and the prospects of securing conviction justify bringing criminal proceedings in the public interest.

46. In the case of camera detected speeding offences, which represent the vast majority of offences to which section 12 is liable to be applied, there is no consideration, either before proceedings are initiated (i.e. before the notice of intended prosecution is issued), or at any time before the case is brought to trial, of the relative seriousness of the offence nor of the public interest.

47. So, In the case of camera detected speed enforcement, there is no tension that regulates the scale of enforcement. In fact the opposite is true. The creation of safety partnerships (which now exist in almost all constabulary regions) has given rise to entirely new bureaucratic institutions, largely unaccountable to the public (and certainly not directly accountable), whose primary activity is the detection of speeding offences and enforcement of related law.

48. Any observer of bureaucracies could not fail to conclude that it
is in their nature to seek to perpetuate and enlarge themselves. There is no reason to think that safety partnerships should be an exception.

49. It is estimated by police that the number of speeding "events" (an "event" being an occasion on which a vehicle exceeds a posted limit) that occur every day is in the order of ten million. That is in excess of 3.5 billion offences per annum. With this vast pool of offences at which to aim, and no constraint of due process that would tend to require resources to be focussed on the more serious offences, it is impossible to think that the camera speed enforcement industry, and with it the number of offences detected and enforced, will not continue to grow at the rate seen over recent years.

50. These safety partnerships are entirely funded from fines; not, it must be noted, all fines, but only those paid by way of fixed penalty. Thus this entire speed enforcement industry relies for its existence on the propensity of persons accused of an offence to waive their right to due process. In that regard, it is revealing to note, by way of illustration of the way in which the funding system for safety partnerships will permit and encourage management thinking to develop, the following extract from the minutes of a meeting of the Cambridgeshire Safety Camera Partnership Steering Group (emphasis added): "BM asked if the ways that people can pay fines are being looked at. AC said it is important to look at what works best for our area. MW said the magistrates service is looking at initiatives, such as cold calling, which would 'push' people down the line of paying their conditional offers".

51. Further, it is clear that the prosecution and court systems would be unable to process the offences presently dealt with by way of fixed penalty if the persons accused did exercise their right to due process. Table A shows that 2.3 million motor vehicle related offences were dealt with in court proceedings in 2003. That number is neither exceptionally high nor low; it is very similar to that applicable in each of the preceding ten years. There can be little doubt that the prosecution and court systems are already hard pressed to deal with the existing volume of motoring and non-motoring offences. The burden of dealing with an additional 1.7 million speeding offences would be, quite clearly, insupportable.

52. Thus the threat of court proceedings that is implicit in the conditional offer of fixed penalty enforcement system is, in actuality, an empty one. The enforcement authorities would be simply unable to carry out the threat in a significant proportion of cases. However, they implicitly rely on the fact that it can be carried out in a small number of individual cases in order to persuade those accused of an offence to waive their right to due process.


[edited to add]

In brief, what I am arguing above is that there is an implicit immorality, that is being practised by the state, in establishing and maintaining a system of detection and prosecution of these offences (which the highest courts in the country have accepted infringes one of our most fundamental rights, the privilege against self-incrimination) on a scale that is disproportionate to the harm caused by or resulting from the commission of those offences.

If the efficacy of mass speed enforcement was incontrovertible (which it incontrovertibly isn't) there would still remain the moral issue of whether the end justifies the means. As it is, the balance of immorality, in my opinion, lies overwhelmingly on the side of the enforcement system.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 19:49 
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Rigpig wrote:
However, its the moral corrosion and respect erosion element I'm centering in on just now.

I wonder if you're approaching this argument from the "wrong end"? So, not so much that there has been moral corrosion leading to an erosion of respect, but that the almost insanely anal approach to enforcement of limits that are perceived by the majority (I'm taking that as a "read" on the basis that every stat I've seen indicates that a majority of motorists speed) as being inappropriate has lead to decline in respect and thence to some degree or moral corrosion in the wider sense.

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 20:20 
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Nice one Riggy, that got me thinking.

For me, law exists to protect us (and property to a lesser extent) from the negligent or deliberate actions of others and ourselves. Unfortunately, this is all quite subjective.

If it is the majority opinion that a given rule does not fit into the spirit of the law then that rule can be deemed to be unjust. The problem here is one of applied information, or the lack thereof. Opinion must be informed with all relevant information possible at the time (making 'hindsite' irrelevent) for it to be acceptable (eliminating ignorance). Unfortunately, there is a great deal of misinformation and mis-interpretation when it comes to 'speeding' (IMO: SS goes some way to redressing this balance).

The fact that the majority disobey a given rule does not necessarily mean that this majority doesn't agree with the spirit of that rule (how much of that is due to arrogance?) or are informed enough to do so - this is indeed the fallacy.



In the case of slavery: the majority did think it wrong; the trick is defining the Set for the Subset 'majority' ('Confederates' or 'America as a whole').

I believe the majority believe tailgating (however it is quantatively defined) to be dangerous (same with drink driving but few do it). Therefore it is right to enforce this even though it sometimes appears that the majority do it :roll:

The case for speeding could boil down to this: despite the huge amount of one-sided propaganda spouted by the partnerships regarding the (automatic) dangers of speed, are the majority well informed enough to justify their belief that doing so is safe? Paul, am I right in thinking you would answer 'yes' to that?


Last edited by Steve on Wed May 10, 2006 21:02, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 20:55 
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Speed limits are, in a general sense, acceptable to society because most people have lived with them all their lives - there can't be many drivers around today who were driving in the days before speed limits.
And, in the past, speed limits were more acceptable because, as has been pointed out, most cars were incapable of sustaining 70mph anyway, and cars had such inefficient brakes and lack of performance that the 30mph limit was about right for the time.
But somone, somewhere, for some reason, must have thought at the time that speed limits would be a good idea, otherwise we probably wouldn't have them.
They could quite easily have introduced some other measures other than speed limits - had someone thought that they'd be a good idea.
We could, for example, have a law which makes it illegal to drive in the dark. There'd probably be some merit to such a law, as you are far more likely to have an accident at night than during the day. and, at the time, such a law would have been acceptable, as people didn't drive nearly as much as they do today. Although better headlights, street lighting, roads, brakes etc would have reduced the effectiveness of such a law over the years - the law would probably have stuck, and few would complain too loudly about it because it would have been - like speed limits - all they ever knew.
But imagine if they started enforcing such a law like they do with speed limits. You would be fined £60 and three points if you were snapped by a camera still driving at one minute past six in the evening - even though in summer it's still light many hours later, and in winter it's already pitch dark.

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 21:15 
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smeggy wrote:
... are the majority well informed enough to justify their belief that doing so is safe? Paul, am I right in thinking you would answer 'yes' to that?


[thinking and hoping that I snipped to the crucial point...]

It's difficult. I think 'informed' is the wrong word for a start - it implies rational consideration. But that's not how I believe it works. The consideration is subconscious, and although it is learned, it is the product of experience rather than education. So I might say:

'I believe that the vast majority set safe and appropriate speeds on the vast majority of occasions.'

And this isn't conjecture - it MUST be so because there are nowhere near enough crashes for the majority to be 'driving too fast'.

But the controls that most of us apply are not rationally considered. The subconsciopus is in control and we're doing it 'by feel'.

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 21:22 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
It's difficult. I think 'informed' is the wrong word for a start - it implies rational consideration. But that's not how I believe it works. The consideration is subconscious, and although it is learned, it is the product of experience rather than education. So I might say:

'I believe that the vast majority set safe and appropriate speeds on the vast majority of occasions.'

In this context this book called The Wisdom of Crowds may be relevant.

Individuals may well make spectacularly wrong decisions. The average of the decisions of a large number of individuals is generally fairly spot-on.

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 21:26 
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PeterE wrote:
Individuals may well make spectacularly wrong decisions. The average of the decisions of a large number of individuals is generally fairly spot-on.

"Ask the audience" is very rarely wrong... :-)

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 21:46 
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pogo wrote:
"Ask the audience" is very rarely wrong... :-)

Trouble is that the choices are limited - Button A - Tony and the problem ones, button b Ming and his mingers or button c David and his cameroons.As Cilla said "the choice is yours", but unlike old fashioned phone boxes pressing button B doesent mean getting your money back. :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 22:12 
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Thank you Botach, that contribution, set against all the previous posts in this thread has actually helped crystalise something in my mind in a perverse sort of way way.......

Moving on,

Safespeed wrote:
I very strongly prefer arguments that are less subjective and personal. Hell, I want evidence!


One is led to wonder whether the Emperor Augustus, when warned of the threat a new and mono-diety religion finding its feet in Palestine during his reign might not have been heard to utter "Hell, I want evidence" :wink:
Pete, Pogo, Smeggy and most of all Observer, can I get back to you guys. It gets a bit tricky juggling various trains of thought, vaguely similar but also subtly different and I've not long finished putting the finishing touches to my 'compressible fluid flow' piece.
Goodnight all.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 23:14 
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pogo wrote:
PeterE wrote:
Individuals may well make spectacularly wrong decisions. The average of the decisions of a large number of individuals is generally fairly spot-on.

"Ask the audience" is very rarely wrong... :-)

LMAO !!!! :rotfl:

But seriously folks, this is one heck of a good thread.
I especially like Observer's, SafeSpeed's and smeggy's posts, too many good things in them to start cutting and pasting, but I would really recommend that we pickle and preserve some of these "golden nuggets" (e.g. Observer's long post a bt earlier, and smeggy's words of wisdom about being informed, and Paul's reaction about "the lack of accidents proves it's safe" - hope I haven't misinterpreted you there).

Can't find a "pat on the back" emoticon, but this will do... :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 23:27 
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RP - you're welcome , but in your sarcasm you miss the idea that there is not much choice from any ot these , a hidden point in my post.

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 00:02 
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pogo wrote:
PeterE wrote:
Individuals may well make spectacularly wrong decisions. The average of the decisions of a large number of individuals is generally fairly spot-on.

"Ask the audience" is very rarely wrong... :-)


Ask the audience is often wrong!

The trick is only to use Ask the audience when the question suits. Which means it is a popular culture question. Once you get above 32k Ask the audience is usually wrong... :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 07:15 
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Two points
Quote:
In a recent thread it was suggested that, if the majority of people were doing something, then it should by default be considered legal.

If every one pours engine oil and chip fat down the drain does that make something wrong legal? does it clean up our waste water or make our beaches cleaner. Some laws/rules make sense and are for the greater good. The enforcement is mostly self enforced because the people understand the issue.

AS
Quote:
"Ask the audience" is very rarely wrong...

ask the audience is rarely wrong when the audience understand the question/subject. There have been some amazing failures on millionaire especialy on religion questions.

People have been fed so much "bull" that they no longer understand the difference between driving dangerously and speeding. The two words are now almost inseperable after an accident.

The reason I "speed" is an inbuilt part of evolution that I learn a task slowly and do it time and time again untill I can do it at the optimum nateral safe speed. Just like you walk run sew, knit, type, cook. Allways looking for a slightly faster way of doing the task.

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 08:36 
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botach wrote:
RP - you're welcome , but in your sarcasm you miss the idea that there is not much choice from any ot these , a hidden point in my post.


No....I don't believe I missed anything :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 08:42 
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pogo wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
However, its the moral corrosion and respect erosion element I'm centering in on just now.

I wonder if you're approaching this argument from the "wrong end"? So, not so much that there has been moral corrosion leading to an erosion of respect, but that the almost insanely anal approach to enforcement of limits that are perceived by the majority (I'm taking that as a "read" on the basis that every stat I've seen indicates that a majority of motorists speed) as being inappropriate has lead to decline in respect and thence to some degree or moral corrosion in the wider sense.


I don't believe that's the case. Moral corrosion is unlikely to spread out from one single issue, its far more likely that its bled inwards towards our attitudes on 'speeding' rather than outwards from the anal enforcement of it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 09:05 
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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
The purpose of morality - and your question - is entirely designed to determine right from wrong in an idealised 'vacuum'.


Morality is not designed at all, it is something we adopt based upon our real world experiences. It then acts as our compass, steering us through life and in that respect I agree with your analysis.


I probably should have said intended rather than designed. I was trying to specify the purpose of morality. We have morality to help us to determine right from wrong.

Rigpig wrote:
Nonetheless, there is ample evidence to suggest that moral corrosion occurs where behaviours and attitudes go unchecked and unchallenged, a process which leads to behavioural and attitudinal problems bleeding through into other aspects of our lives.


I think the greatest danger here is that we're losing respect for law, for police and official road safety. The corrosion is the result of having laws we cannot live by.

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 09:08 
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Rigpig wrote:
Safespeed wrote:
I very strongly prefer arguments that are less subjective and personal. Hell, I want evidence!


One is led to wonder whether the Emperor Augustus, when warned of the threat a new and mono-diety religion finding its feet in Palestine during his reign might not have been heard to utter "Hell, I want evidence" :wink:


I'm sorry mate - I'm sure that you're making an interesting point, but having never heard of Emperor Augustus, it's rather lost on me.

I considered Google, but that might be a slow process in such a case.

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Rigpig wrote:
pogo wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
However, its the moral corrosion and respect erosion element I'm centering in on just now.

I wonder if you're approaching this argument from the "wrong end"? So, not so much that there has been moral corrosion leading to an erosion of respect, but that the almost insanely anal approach to enforcement of limits that are perceived by the majority (I'm taking that as a "read" on the basis that every stat I've seen indicates that a majority of motorists speed) as being inappropriate has lead to decline in respect and thence to some degree or moral corrosion in the wider sense.


I don't believe that's the case. Moral corrosion is unlikely to spread out from one single issue, its far more likely that its bled inwards towards our attitudes on 'speeding' rather than outwards from the anal enforcement of it.


In the road safety context, I'm quite sure the effect is spreading out.

In the broader 'all of society' context you're probably right, but is that the subject we're discussing?

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 09:56 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
I think the greatest danger here is that we're losing respect for law, for police and official road safety. The corrosion is the result of having laws we cannot live by.

I think that could be worded differently; we can live by that law (it wouldn’t kill us to do so..…well…..at least not in general) but in the eyes of many the law is inappropriate (applied for reasons false) or being abused by those who legislate and enforce it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:04 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
Safespeed wrote:
I very strongly prefer arguments that are less subjective and personal. Hell, I want evidence!


One is led to wonder whether the Emperor Augustus, when warned of the threat a new and mono-diety religion finding its feet in Palestine during his reign might not have been heard to utter "Hell, I want evidence" :wink:


I'm sorry mate - I'm sure that you're making an interesting point, but having never heard of Emperor Augustus, it's rather lost on me.


Yeah, sorry it was a vague and perhaps smarmy remark :)

There is a widely held belief amongst historians who study the period, that the spread of christianity indirectly led to the collapse of the Roman Empire by the 3rd century AD.
The Roman Empire effectively rotted from within; pacifism, decadence, hedonism soon spread from a minority to the majority who lost interest in the glorious past and simply lived for the day. They were then easy pickings for the Germanic people from the north who simple walked in a nicked it off them (broadly and very roughly speaking).

Societies and civilizations don't live and die because of one single issue, but our attitudes do migrate from one issue to another. There are suggestions (and I've lost my primary reference on this much to my regret) that cultures and societies flourish and develop up to a point of critical mass and then regress back as they, quite simply, get too damned smart for their own good; the Romans again are cited as evidence of this.
My support for the SS campaign is tempered by a concern that it might be supported for the wrong reasons. Contesting injustice is one thing, plain belligerence is another, and I certainly feel that as a society we are becoming more arsey and belligerent sometimes for the wrong reasons. Thus, if we look in the wider context I personally can see that it is for the latter reason rather than the former that the campaign is both viewed (by detractors) and taken up by supporters. I want to be certain that people are taking in the information, analysing it for themselves (not letting others do it for them), and acting upon it in the right context.
Thats a long and somewhat philosophical post that, if I come back later on I might be tempted to edit it. Nonetheless, the sentiment stands.


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