Safe Speed Forums

Darwin has well documented the cure for stupid people like this.

But it does raise an interesting point (do normal drivers know where to sensibly mount a Sat Nav device and know how to safely use it?)

I feel clear advice in this aria is called for if only to help prevent the shallow end of the gene pool dictating the rules for all.


I myself have just picked up a Tom-Tom Rider for my bike. It is mounted on a little bracket on the headstock so its display is just under the normal consol.

As you can imagine trying to use maps on a bike it very problematic but the Sat Nav in one fail swoop stops me having to stop in inappropriate places to take of my gloves get out the map and check it against street names and signage.

And I can instead keep my eyes on the road and listen to the voice prompts supplied to me helmet and a quick glance down will show me my root through complicated junction helping me to pick the right lane well in advice and to be able to give clear indication of my intentions without having to wait till I see the appropriate sign on the junction and try to move over without getting flattened.

I relate this to my first visit the Hamburg been in the car in the middle of a huge one way system trying to work out WTF I was let alone where to go to next while all the time not been able to stop. It was a nightmare and I am still surprised I didn’t have an accident. To my last visit where I just followed the instructions of the nice lady in my helmet and kept my eye well and truly on the road and not on the to me very confusing signage.


P.S. having an audio alert when I get close to an accident black spot (Speed Camera) is invaluable aid to my safety.

Well, here we are a couple of months on and the popular attention seems to be turning a fraction. A little less concentration on the sales boom and related profit opportunity of Satnav and a little more on the implications.

A quick Google reveals reference to a few insurance company studies about the distraction risk of such things. Just maybe the inklings of a possibility that not all drivers will use GPS safely are starting to creep through the general awareness? It's another f***ing dashboard toy you can live without perhaps?
Maybe, let's give it another 6 months and a major fatality and we'll look at it again.
Yes, I still hate the damn things, and their blinkered use by the sheep-like masses.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 79,00.html
Sat-nav dunks dozy drivers in deep water
By Simon de Bruxelles
THERE is a lucrative new sport in the Wiltshire village of Luckington: fishing stranded motorists out of a ford at £25 a time.
Since a road closure, dozens of drivers have blithely followed directions from their satellite navigation systems, not realising that the recommended route goes through the ford.
Normally the water — the start of the River Avon — is about 2ft deep but it can swiftly double in depth after heavy rain.
Every day since the main B4040 was closed after a wall collapsed on April 8 one or two motorists have been towed out, having either failed to notice or ignored warning signs. Some farmers have been charging £25 to give a tow with tractors.... [story continues]

or http://www.newswheel.com/newswheel/stor ... -eyes-.htm

Proof, if it was needed, that many people are too stupid to be allowed to even drive cars, let alone cars with distracting computer screens stuck in the windscreen. Just how are the pro-GPS crew going to defend it this time I wonder? Maybe the "these people are in the minority, most drivers wouldn't do that" approach or perhaps the "I use my GPS properly so it must be OK for everyone" tactic or even "if it wan't GPS distracting them it would be something else" (which is probably the worst argument of all time.)

Even Paul Smith is abiguous in his stance on Satnav screens (see conflict of philosophy back on page 4 or 5 of this thread), I wonder how he feels about these latest revelations on the british driver's perception of reality?

Yesterday I took a trip from Albrighton up to Warton near Preston in a mininbus with 7 others. The front-seat passenger had a sat-nav thingy on a PDA; the driver had never used one before.
Whilst staring at this infernal device the driver:

Sailed through a red traffic light (this did cause a lot of consternation in the back, believe me )
Crossed a mini-roundabout that wasn't shown in the software
Completely missed one turn-off because he was following the display and not the roadsigns (he was on top of the junction before he realised)
Swerved all over the hatched area at a roundabout because he'd forgotten what the voice had just told him and (again) wasn't watching for the ruddy great blue signs that said M6 DOWN THERE

This experience has scared me off getting one of these bloody 'gotta-have-it' gadgets for quite some time.

you're right. People manage to do things this stupid without satnav so why should they have something to assist them in the car.

Fine, and most of the time I have a missus who can read a map. When I don't, I use sat-nav, and I don't drive over roundabouts, into rivers, through red lights, etc., etc., etc. So if we could have little less knee-jerk and a bit more leaving the likes of me alone to use a very useful tool without inconvenience to any one, then I'll be a happy bunny.

And I have a wife that can read a map, but more often than not needs a while to confirm the current location, which means that she starts deciding on left or right when you actually reach the junction, not before, leaving you sitting in the wrong part of the junction with locals up your backside wondering what you are doing. She also sometimes has "directional dyslexia" when we are driving in Europe as she has mentally remapped left and right, so I get "turn left just here...", "no you have missed it, that left turn!", "Oh sorry, I meant right."

Then when she isn't in the car and I am in unfamiliar territory, I would much rather have the GPS trying to find the street names and counting turnings than myself. This actually lets me get on with more important stuff such as not mowing down children and OAPs and trying to work out what the bloody speed limit is now.

It also tells me clearly where the hell I am supposed to go through complicated junctions and down city streets. If you think that road signs will tell you where to go, then you ought to try following the A3 from central London down to the main DC part - when I last did it there was only 4 or 5 signs covering a 5 or 6 mile stretch of road that included many diversions and complex junctions. So you had to juggle the A-Z with reading street signs while avoiding taxis, dispatch riders, buses and all of the other aggresive London drivers.

You can stick with maps if you want, but my view is unchanged: for me GPS Sat Nav is a major positive tool that reduces stress and unnecessary distraction allowing me to get on with the job of driving safely.

Precisely. A little less knee-jerk would be good. Did you read [quote="curmudgeon]Just how are the pro-GPS crew going to defend it this time I wonder? Maybe the "these people are in the minority, most drivers wouldn't do that" approach or perhaps the "I use my GPS properly so it must be OK for everyone" tactic or even "if it wan't GPS distracting them it would be something else" [/quote]

'Fraid you're missing the point old chap. Just because you can use one doesn't make it OK for the whole populace. Jim down the road can use a hanglider but that doesn't mean Mrs. Miggins should be allowed out on one.

Sure, but my post was not a personal accusation aimed at Einion Yrth and everyone else who can drive properly and use technology in an appropriate manner. Else it would have been nugatory.
But there are those for whom sat nav systems are just the latest gotta-have-it gadget just like HD TVs and TV capable mobile phones. Place one of these devices into the hands of some of the air-headed individuals out there and you have yet another mechanism through which road safety becomes compromised. I saw it for myself yesterday (which was my point) and it scares the hell out of me.

So what are you proposing - a Sat Nav Licence with associated test, and proof of licence required before you can buy a handheld unit or even a car with one fitted?

Apart from having a general slagging off of Sat Nav and a few people that are struggling to drive in unfamiliar territory, do you have any positive suggestions? Do you think that having them driving with their noses stuck in a map will be any safer?

So not very different from the GPS software that sends people through deep rivers, up mountains, across fields, calls for U-turns on motorways and directs them over cliffs.
Maybe you should download the upgrade pack "Wife v1.2" instead.

I'm saying that this is a new problem. Before the huge commercial profits were to be had from selling GPS to all and sundry we used maps. Now there's GPS and with it comes a new set of risks. One of the risks of maps is that some people will try and read them while driving along. GPS carries the risks of, blindly following dumb directions, driving while looking at the screen, reprogramming in motion and so on.

Before mobile phones there wasn't a problem of people phoning while driving. Now we have the damn things there is that problem. Do you condone driving and phoning?

It won't install over Mistress 1.1.
And it deletes all your MS Money files as well.

Where is the source for the original

I really don't think that there are huge commercial profits being made out of Sat Nav, but there is a demand for a working navigation solution. Many drivers that never leave their local area will not be getting one, but those that often have to go into unfamiliar territory find them a very valuable tool that makes their driving safer.

I am very good with maps, and can visualise and remember 10 or 20 significant turns, but I also find them difficult to use in complicated city areas and in extreme rural areas neither of which get signed properly, and neither of which are generous when it comes to stopping areas that let you read the map properly. In fact in the inner city areas it is getting significantly worse with things like £100 fines for pulling over into a bus lane to read the map. The Sat Nav is simply an electronic rolling map display that keeps track of where you are and overlays directions.

Every Sat Nav unit has warnings that it should not be operated by the driver while in motion - I have to dismiss an "I understand" page every time I start the software up, then I set the destination if I am going somewhere that needs it, otherwise I just leave it tracking and warning me of speed camera locations and showing me my exact speed. If it is directing me, then I will glance at it occasionally when safe to get information such as distance to next turning and estimated arrival time, and for complicated junctions to get an overview of the route through the junction.

I personally hate mobile phones as a totally unnecessary intrusion into my private life and if anybody wants me then they can leave a message on my answer machine which I will pick up when I can be bothered. My company policy is that mobile phones must never be used while driving, which fits my attitude to them perfectly. But phones add nothing to driving other than providing an easy way to call 999 when you have buggered it up.

Perhaps the question should really be "why is that drivers feel that they have the time to play around with electronic gadgets rather than concentrating on driving". I include ipods, CD changers, maps and DVDs in with phones and playing with GPS. It is a totally different question to is GPS good or bad, because the answer is GPS is good when used properly just like any other tool, and bad when used improperly just like any other tool. Perhaps drivers that are forced by inappropriate roads policy into driving so far within the envelope are just trying to alleviate the boredom, and it is the roads policy that is the root cause?

No, wrong, you've not read the posts and you're putting words in my mouth.
As I've said in earlier posts I'm calling for CLEAR and SENSIBLE RULES on the use of this equipment, just as we all expect for other roadgoing gear and on-road behaviour for the safety of all roadusers, and then for those rules to be ENFORCED.

Now you're talking. All hail.

If I can summarise vastly:

"A large number of drivers cannot cope with operating a navigation device in their vehicles safely. As that is the case, these navigation devices should be outlawed for all".

so by extending your logic a little ...

"A large number of drivers are not safe driving at speeds over the posted legal limit. As that is the case, driving over the limit should be outlawed for all"

Oh wait, it already is! [insert smiley of your choice here as I can't / won't]

_________________
COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

and why do you think we need even more rules when the present rules are more than capable of dealing with the situation if only there were some police around to enforce them?

Are you suggesting that the simple old "Driving without due care and attention" rule might just cover it, just as it would have covered mobile use. And just like the mobile laws any Sat Nav law will be utterly useless without enforcement.

When is this country going to wake up and realise that a dramatic simplification of the laws and regulations would both be a lot cheaper to run and a lot simpler to enforce than this continuous barrage of more and more rules that nobody has a chance in hell of understanding*.

* Unless you are a lawyer and do nothing but play with laws... perhaps that explains everything Mr Blair.

'Scuse me, I never said new rules, you said that.
Take what we already have, clarify how it applies to Satnav and anything else you like, communicate the concept in simple terms and enforce it. That's all. No new rules, just clarity.