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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 07:00 
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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?


Last edited by FJSRiDER on Wed Oct 04, 2006 14:24, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 07:57 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
I do the same in my car and have found similar, I do note that other road users point out that I have my lights on, great they have seen me and are aware of me.


That's FJSRiDER's point isn't it. You're taking additional conspicuity for yourself at the expense of other road users who may not have the option to light themselves up. I somewhat agree with FJSRiDER on this. Lights should be used only when they are really necessary.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 23:20 
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http://www.doeni.gov.uk/foi/search/document.asp?doc=1369.
£1,000 fine for NOT using dipped headlights???

Quote:
Lighting up Saves lives
1. In DAYTIME you must use DIPPED HEADLIGHTS when
visibility is reduced seriously by FOG, MIST, HEAVY RAIN,
SPRAY or similar conditions. If you are in doubt about the level
of visibility – switch on dipped headlights for extra safety.

Read on...
Quote:
2. In conditions of poor visibility it is absolutely vital that other
road users can see your vehicle.The use of DIPPED
HEADLIGHTS makes this very much easier for them.
3. You must, of course, use headlights during the hours of
darkness, on main or dipped beam as appropriate.
4. Sidelights alone are not enough: they are often not seen until
the outline of the vehicle is visible, which may be much too
late. Sidelights are really only parking lights.
5. Dipped headlights must be properly adjusted to avoid dazzling
other road users.
6. Make sure all lights and indicators are clean and working
properly.
7. At dusk and on dull mornings DIPPED HEADLIGHTS will not
just help you to see but, equally importantly, will help you to BE
SEEN.
8. If you plan to drive when on holiday the use of DIPPED
HEADLIGHTS in poor visibility during daytime is compulsory
in many European countries.
9. SEE and BE SEEN.
USE DIPPED HEADLIGHTS DURING POOR VISIBILITY, and
help reduce traffic collision casualties in Northern Ireland.
10. Remember that you should only use front or rear fog lights
when visibility is reduced, generally when you cannot see for
more than 100 metres, as they dazzle other road users and can
obscure your brake lights.You MUST switch them off when
visibility improves.
FAILURE TO USE DIPPED HEADLIGHTS
NOW CARRIES A FINE OF UP TO £1,000.


Funny, they seem to have drawn the same conclusions!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 23:28 
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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?


Last edited by FJSRiDER on Wed Oct 04, 2006 14:33, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 00:13 
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At least it wasn't in Russian! :)
And actually it's from the DoE, not DfT who brought you speed cameras!

The AA Motoring Trust wrote:
Austria is the first west European country outside Scandinavia to make it compulsory for all vehicles to drive with dipped headlights during the day, on road safety grounds. From 15 April 2006, this will be enforced with a €15 fine. The European Commission is considering a similar law across the union.

Other considerations include:

* the current law of turning on dipped headlights in poor visibility is followed by most drivers in the UK;
* some vulnerable road users, such as motorcyclists, currently make use of their lights to stand out on the road but may lose the benefit if daytime dipped headlights are made compulsory.

Blue Mountains LGA wrote:
Weather Related: 44% of total accidents

Road Surface Conditions: 35% of total accidents

This indicates an over representation of number of motor vehicle accidents in the Blue Mountains LGA are attributable to adverse weather conditions and road surface. When a comparison is made to the annual wet/rain days in the mountains at 131.2 or 37% and with cloudy/overcast days, 149.7 or 42% of days, these contributing factors become alarmingly significant.

A simple safety precaution that drivers can implement is to use their headlights during daytime. This is internationally referred to as Daytime Running Lights (DRL). Research shows that DRL increases visibility, especially when there is adverse weather conditions, low light, and glare from sun or from dull coloured motor vehicles.

Further analysis of driving experience shows that the fact of driving with daytime headlights reduces the frequency of the collisions in question by half, that is to say 25% of all fatal daytime accidents.

The psychological research review shows that DRL does not only improve the visibility of motor vehicles in daytime, but also influences the timely peripheral perception of vehicles making conflicting movements. Moreover, cars with DRL are better identified as cars and their distances are estimated more safely compared to cars without DRL. All this contributes to the expectations that DRL has positive safety effects, especially in conditions of low ambient illumination. At certain distances, 8% of vehicles become invisible to other road users, even in perfect conditions.

Research tells us that success in modifying people's behaviour has come largely through a combination of education programs, legislation, enforcement and appropriate engineer solutions, together with measures to make it easier for people to behave safely. DRL and the strategies of Drive To Survive have all these elements.

"In the short term there is no safety measure with the same degree of effectiveness"
(Gerondeau, C; A revolutionary and urgent measure of the initiative by the European Commission; European RO Issue 12EWS 1998)

KCBD NewsChannel driving tips wrote:
Recognizing Rain Dangers on the Road

Rainy driving tips - In stormy conditions, it is more difficult to see other vehicles, road signs and the road itself. It is critical to make sure you can see and be seen.

* First and foremost: slow down! It takes longer to stop or adjust in wet weather.
* Stay toward the middle lanes - water tends to pool in the outside lanes.
* Maintain proper following distance 3 Second Rule. This needs to be increased in wet weather.
* Drive in the tracks of a car ahead of you.
* Don't follow large trucks or busses too closely. The spray created by their large tires reduces your vision. Take care when passing them as well; if you must pass, do so quickly and safely.
* Be more alert when driving in wet or slippery conditions. Watch out for brake lights in front of you.
* Avoid using your brakes; if possible, take your foot off the accelerator to slow down.
* Turn your headlights on even in a light rain, or in gloomy, foggy or overcast conditions. Not only do they help you see the road, but they'll help other drivers see you. If your car has daytime running lights you still should put them on, so vehicles behind you can see you better.
* Before it starts to rain, replace old or brittle wipers.
* Avoid off-road driving: it's hard to judge the actual depth of puddles and you can easily become stuck, even in an SUV.
* Never drive beyond the limits of visibility. At night rainy roads become especially treacherous. The glare of oncoming lights, amplified by the rain on your windscreen, can cause temporary loss of visibility while substantially increasing driver fatigue. In rainy conditions pedestrians, livestock, and wildlife are extremely hard to spot and even harder to avoid.
* Never drive through moving water if you can't see the ground through it; your car could be swept off the road.
* When driving through a puddle of uncertain depth, go slow. If it's deeper than the bottom of your doors, turn around and find another route. Deep water can cause serious damage to a modern car's electrical system.
* Avoid splashing pedestrians.
* If possible, stay off the road during heavy thunderstorms. Large flashes of lightning can temporarily blind and disorient drivers, and the accompanying high winds and heavy rain can create deadly driving conditions.

No it wasn't the only source I could come up with, but since you have your head firmly set in the sand, I didn't think you would take a blind bit of notice of ANY evidence to the contrary, and would continue to insist that drivers should NOT have lights on in the conditions we have described.
Clearly in Northern Ireland this could land you with a £1000 fine - so I recommend YOU dont go there - which is a shame, because I am told it is a nice place to visit!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 07:04 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
Further analysis of driving experience shows that the fact of driving with daytime headlights reduces the frequency of the collisions in question by half, that is to say 25% of all fatal daytime accidents.

The psychological research review shows that DRL does not only improve the visibility of motor vehicles in daytime, but also influences the timely peripheral perception of vehicles making conflicting movements. Moreover, cars with DRL are better identified as cars and their distances are estimated more safely compared to cars without DRL. All this contributes to the expectations that DRL has positive safety effects, especially in conditions of low ambient illumination. At certain distances, 8% of vehicles become invisible to other road users, even in perfect conditions.


I may be wrong but, AIUI, these conclusions are based upon <some sample> of vehicles using DRL in a population of traffic that is largely NOT using DRL and comparing it to <some sample> of vehicles WITHOUT DRL in a population of traffic largely without DRL. Of course I accept, in those circumstances, that DRL is likely to be beneficial.

The fallacy is to come to a general conclusion, based upon that research, that there will be a widespread benfit if all traffic uses DRL. Surely that's obvious?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 07:35 
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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?


Last edited by FJSRiDER on Wed Oct 04, 2006 14:33, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 08:31 
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And what did you think DoE stood for?
It was writen in the corner of the original PDF!
It was NOT from the DfT who gave us "Safety" cameras!
Quote:
Nothing you have cut and pasted is anything other than propaganda from organisations who should know better. But since they are organisations that also support speed cameras (AA Motoring Trust - the only UK organisation you could find) and the others are from an Australian park authority and a parochial news channel from Lubbock, Texas we can see how poor their (and your) ability to think really is. Rather similar to your inability to read through academic evidence to the contrary that I have already posted.

I merely sought to show a wide variety of sources. Since you refuse to even consider another point of view to your own, I dont see the point in spending any more time posting other data, but you will know it's there!
Quote:
Has anyone actually been fined £1000? You have no idea do you? Happy to swallow the drivel dished out by the road safety brigade when it suits your own blinkered and ill-considered view of the world. Try breaking the habit of a lifetime and start thinking. You might learn something.

Road safety brigade? I thought that was what we all discussed here regardless of our views! YOUR views on lights, and safety belts are certainly different, but have very little substance other than "you dont think so"... or should that be "your own blinkered and ill-considered view of the world"?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 09:09 
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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?


Last edited by FJSRiDER on Wed Oct 04, 2006 14:27, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 09:46 
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If I could step between the two parties here, and suggest that perhaps (as with many things) the two arguments depend on differing conditions are are equally valid in different circumstances. :angel:

It is the common problem of trying to define a global rule using data from a restricted set of circumstances. And you are both doing it. It is very similar to the 5% for each 1mph rule used to justify reductions in speed limits where the original data only applied to a specific type of road and conditions, but is now being applied globally (an in many cases incorrectly).

What I would like to suggest is that:

In conditions with a relatively high "soft" hazard density where cyclists and pedestrians are around, then the use of lights is fine for those that use them but detrimental for those that are not so equipped, and therefore the use of lights should be discouraged so that everybody has an equal chance of being seen.

Alternately in conditions where the "soft" hazards are not present (such as motorways and other faster roads), then the use of lights is a positive thing as everybody present is equally equipped, and through the use of lights their position and speed is more easily determined.

Obviously there will be a "grey area" between the two, and I am not certain where this lays...

:bunker:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 09:56 
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This is all very interesting but, irrespective of any research data on either side, I know I still lose sight of other road users in the gloom and, if I can't see them, I assume they probably can't see me.

The fact is that, rightly or wrongly, some people DO put their lights on in poor visibility and if some do then all must to avoid contrast masking. It may not be ideal but this is the reality.

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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?


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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:55 
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When this sort of non-trivial decision is being made/considered, we (the public) deserve a transparent project management approach from the powers that be, including
  • requirements analysis, goal statements, budget forecasts, consultation model
  • a certain (independently audited) standard of deliverables
  • clear named responsible ministers and contactpersons
  • professionally managed and followed up feedback/response mechanisms

...all the above open and public, published on www.opengov.org/project1234xx.htm or somesuch. In this way it would be possible to see what evidence was used in the process of the decision making, examine it, check it's quality etc.

Less gobbledegook, vaguenes, spin and unclear contacts/responsibilities. More clarity, openness, honesty and consultation with the public.

Or am I describing an unrealistic Utopia?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 00:13 
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Whilst revising my theory test almost a year ago I came across this question:

What must you do before entering a tunnel?

A. Sound the horn
B. Turn on your headlights
C. Slow down
D. Tune in to a local radio station

Guess what, the answer was D. God only knows why you would spend 5mins picking up a reception for a local radio station, playing 90's music on a Sunday afternoon, when by the time your tuner is programmed inyou left the tunnel 2miles behind you!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 00:36 
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DWard wrote:
Whilst revising my theory test almost a year ago I came across this question:

What must you do before entering a tunnel?

A. Sound the horn
B. Turn on your headlights
C. Slow down
D. Tune in to a local radio station

Guess what, the answer was D. God only knows why you would spend 5mins picking up a reception for a local radio station, playing 90's music on a Sunday afternoon, when by the time your tuner is programmed inyou left the tunnel 2miles behind you!


Are you SURE that was the answer? You can't get a radio signal in most tunnels...

But it is often quite a good idea to turn on your headlights - there's no daylight in tunnels!

Perhaps it was a misprint?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:30 
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With all the arguements for and against lights - on my daily commute , i have one junction on the right( not signed by the way) where i know that someone will decide to pull out late, turn right and not accelerate too much and with a bend close by , overtaking is dicey- i've found that switching on headlights (even on a bright morning) and sometimes main beam makes them hesitate to pull out( or is it wishfull thinking). Anyway with lights on the percentage of late pull outs decreases dramatically.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 17:48 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
DWard wrote:
Whilst revising my theory test almost a year ago I came across this question:

What must you do before entering a tunnel?

A. Sound the horn
B. Turn on your headlights
C. Slow down
D. Tune in to a local radio station

Guess what, the answer was D. God only knows why you would spend 5mins picking up a reception for a local radio station, playing 90's music on a Sunday afternoon, when by the time your tuner is programmed inyou left the tunnel 2miles behind you!


Are you SURE that was the answer? You can't get a radio signal in most tunnels...

But it is often quite a good idea to turn on your headlights - there's no daylight in tunnels!

Perhaps it was a misprint?
Im positive, I chose the headlight option and lost a mark.


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