Safe Speed Forums

..it's no good being in the right if you've got a car/bike/truck embedded in the side of your car/bike/truck.

being right isn't going to save you an hour on the hard shoulder, a late delivery, a trip to the body shop/garage/ A&E.

same as any other 'right' you have on the road.


you have a responsibility to drive sensibly and safely, even if others aren't.

disagree if you wish

No it isn't.



Then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.



So you think it is a good idea to force traffic to a standstill on a motorway slip road? Don't you think that could be just a little bit dangerous?

What if you were coming down the sliproad behind some muppet who doesn't manage his own merge and gets forced to a standstill?



Nobody has suggested that, you have completely made it up. Please reread the thread.

A rule which might work well enough when traffic in L1 is sufficiently well spaced out to allow the traffic on the slip road an easy merge, but which falls down a bit when L1 traffic is heavy with no safe way for merging traffic to join L1. As has been said often enough in this thread, co-operation is what's needed. Merging traffic shouldn't expect the traffic on the motorway to jump out of their way and allow them a free merge regardless of their speed/positioning, but traffic on the motorway ought to make life as easy as possible for the merging traffic, because extending your own journey time by a few seconds is infinitely preferable to directly or indirectly causing someone else to have an accident, one which may end up involving you as well...




Umm, keep things in context please. Having two trucks side by side in L1 & L2 for several minutes, especially when that leaves just one lane free for other traffic to get by, can be a real irritation and a safety issue. Having a truck move out into L2 for the few seconds it takes to pass a slow-moving vehicle trying to join L1 is a non-event.




So why don't the professionals amongst us (and I note with interest the sudden arrival of two new HGV-driving members who seem to have joined specifically to comment in this thread) simply try to pass on their accumulated experience and wisdom in a friendly non-confrontational manner? If you've been around the forums long enough you should know that we're generally open to learning how to better ourselves - note how well the advice from the likes of In Gear is received - but not if it's delivered in a way which implies we're all a bunch of dangerous idiots.

_________________
Chris

Dear BobTheDog,

I think Paul's post pretty much sums it all up so I don't feel any desire to reply to your personal attacks.

Have a nice life.

I too have to confess to being a Pro wagon driver, and in all honesty did register here to quote specifically on this thread..

But before anybody comes back at me...

I'm not interested in name calling or poking fun at anybody, my interest here is soley for that of safety.. It is vital that differing sections of the motoring public communicate with other each and hopefully realise and understand the problems and hazards faced by all.

It's not a playstation game out there, there is no second life or restart button, it's a 1 shot deal, and you have to get it right...

There is definatly the feel of 2 sides playing here and by reading other posts in other threads there is without doubt a vein of wagon haters within the ranks.
I am not here to defend wagon drivers, there are for sure drivers out there that i wouldn't trust on a pair of roller skates.

But...

Your average wagon driver covers around 1500 miles per week, 85% of these miles are usually done on motorways, and 9 out of 10 times this is the following scenario for the wagon driver in lane 1..

Entry slip comes into view, then line of vehicles wanting on comes into view. wagon driver indicates to come out into lane 2, but nobody wants him there cause it'll slow them down, wagon driver sits waiting for a gap with the slip road rapidly begining to join.
The tail end of the slip road line is now just 3 cars long doing 55/60mph, and the wagon driver finally gets a gap, he pulls out to be left out to dry as the cars hit lane 1 and take off at 80mph...

After this has been done to you 1000's of times every year, you tend to get a bit fed-up, and start not bothering to pull out for them at all.

I'm not saying this is right, wrong, or safe, i'm just trying to give you an example of why it happens.
Most people on here obviousy have an interest in safety, else you wouldn't be here, but instead of constantly looking for someone to point the finger at, why not try to listen, take on board, and understand whats happening around you.
And maybe, just maybe, we'll all get home safely everyday..

_________________
Dave

Hi Shaky,

I think thats what most people in here actually do to be fair, which is why I can't understand why this thread has gone a bit pear-shaped in places.

I reckon most folks here would take the view that when you are stuck inside a pile of smoking wreckage, its actually irrelevant whether the incident was caused by the vehicle joining the motorway, or the one already on it - either way you are toast.
Unfortunately there are drivers who will dogmatically cling to their right of way and to hell with the consequences.
NB: That last comment is not aimed at anyone who has posted above, please let me make that clear.

Looks to me like the population of paranoid truckers is considerably greater than the population of 'wagon haters'.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

A thought started running through my mind on the way back from the shops - presumably the rules governing joining a motorway were introduced around the same time that motorways themselves were introduced? If so, then with the greatly reduced levels of traffic around at that time, following the merging rules exactly as written would be no big deal - even at busy times there would most likely be sufficiently large gaps for the merging traffic to slot into with no great difficulty.

Is this simply a case of a rule being written for a different age of motoring, left unaltered since then, and subsequently being overtaken by changes in road conditions to the point where in many cases sticking rigidly to the rules as written could be more dangerous than "making it up" to suit each individual merge scenario?

_________________
Chris

This is one of my "pet hates". If someone is good enough to let you in and you join alongside that samaritan I think you should be courteous enough to hold back, let the samaritan pass you, and then help him regain the place he temporarily gave up to let you in. However, that's just my take on "fair play" rather than anything that I've found in "the rules".

JHMO...

_________________
Will

I think that there are a range of situations - all different - within the scope of this.

At the first extreme, a L1 vehicle moves out to facilitate a merge for a single vehicle far ahead. As it turns out the single vehicle merging was running faster and our chap in L2 simply didn't need to move out. Still hats off to him for trying to think ahead, and no harm done. Our merger is simply gone.

At the other extreme, lunatic slip road traffic joins BEHIND the chap who moved over to make room, but undertakes at speed and swoops off. Obviously this behaviour is out of order. (But we do need to be aware that some loonie might.)

Between the extremes there's a grey area where decisions have to be made. Let's say I'm the merging traffic and the mover-outer is an HGV at 56mph.

- If I'm behind the front of the HGV, I'm going to slow, wait and join behind. When his rear is clear I'll give the long flash.

- If I'm a clear distance in front at the actual merge, I'll stay on the power and clear the area with a friendly wave of thanks. There's no point in slowing to make him overtake me.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

or they sit in the inside lane leaving us to choose between staying alongside in L2 or dropping back in behind them since they wont back off or accelerate.

as a famous cartoon character says, "you are damned if you do and you are damned if you dont"

if we move over and get stuck, we annoy everyone behind in L2, if we dont, we annoy everyone trying to join so they will cut us up. both arguements have been raised here so why dont you explain how we keep everyone happy (with the exception of ourselves since we are obviously below respectable status)

_________________
Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

Get a grip....

We're here to help make others aware of how different drivers and vehicles react.. Not have our personal profiles valuated... If your not interested in creating safer roads, then hand command to someone that is...

_________________
Dave

I do drive responsibly and safely. If the numpty car drivers can't work out that they're gonna come off worse if they try to force me out of the way so they can merge (even though they've half a mile of slip road to do it) then that isn't my problem.

Er, yes it is. If you are giving priority to something, you are giving way. Doh. If you are giving way to something, you are giving it priority.



How do you figure that I am part of the problem? I'm driving down the M1 minding my own business, maintaining a constant speed then suddenly find myself with a car at the side of me on a half mile long piece of slip road doing the same speed as me. The car makes no attempt to accelerate or ease off to either merge in front or behind me and the slip road runs out and they're forced with either having to slam on or use the hard shoulder. So that's MY problem is it?? Yeah, whatever.



I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. They have the option to either toe the gas and merge in front or ease off and merge behind. The majority choose to do neither, so why should I accommodate them just because they can't be arsed using the right pedal that they were given?



It wouldn't happen, because a professional driver would be able to see what was about to happen well in advance and would back off to accommodate.



That's exactly how it reads to me.

Oh you silly boy! I'm not aware of ANY 'wagon haters' here. We're a highly tolerant bunch. Almost everyone here is interested in good co-operation between road user groups. We're big on courtesy and consideration and making allowances for the other chap's needs.

If there's been some 'intolerance', it's been intolerance against stupid ideas not intolerance against truckers.

In short, get that chip of your shoulder, stop being paranoid, and stop jumping to conclusions. Really. You're most welcome to as much road space and as much forum space as you need.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I agree that all of the above are helpful but you have missed the most important rule: leave plenty of space to the vehicle in front.

Given a decent space, even if the joining vehicle does mess it up a bit, the space will allow him to recover the situation.

Come off worse? You think there's any guarantee of that? Once a crash is on the cards *anything* can happen. It might be their fault, but your neck is still on the line. Crashes are massively unpredictable once they have started and especially so for those involving heavy vehicles.

It's up to you to save your neck if you can by safe and early reaction to anything that another idiot road user might throw at you. Because throw it they will. It's as certain as death and taxes.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yep. Thanks. Excellent advice I'd not included.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi Rigpig,

Your dead right, to create safer roads and make driving an enjoyable experience, you need team work, and the ability to understand and respect each other.
None of us are perfect, and we all make mistakes.. Maybe whats needed is an even clearer set of rules and guidlines...

To be truthful i dont really see how people can get joining a motorway wrong, I have been driving 20 years and as of yet never had a problem at the top of a slip road..
So long as your speed and observations are up to scratch you'll get on 1st everytime.
For those that have problems, maybe they need to sit back and think about how, and where they're going wrong..

_________________
Dave

Firstly, I'm a grown man and not a silly boy...

Secondly, I have no chip, i was just commenting on observations i had made.

Thirdly, I am in no way paranoid, i have done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide.

Fourthly, I have not jumped to any conclusions, i have simply aired a couple of opinions of which i was hoping would help create a better understanding.

As for your tolerance, you have not shown a great deal towards me, as i had only posted 3 times, and you've seen fit to personally insult me..

Not a great start by Admin is it..

However, the forum seems to be made up of sensible people with some good advice, and as a mature adult i'm willing to forgive and forget.
I'm not a believer in cutting my nose off to spite my face..

_________________
Dave