Safe Speed Forums

anton: If you can't even try to obey the speed limit, don't drive anywhere.

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Which do you prefer, DILLIGAS or DILLIGAF?



You have STILL not explained how you are specially able to impart this
great 'richness' to the masses. But perhaps I should have more
understanding of your failings, as RigPig suggests.



Yes. I agree with that. We should pledge on honour to read and obey
the code and to be responsible when we receive our licenses. And
(begrudging as you are) it's very nice of you to admit that the rules of
the Highway Code from a starting point, something to build on. But not
something to build up speed on, eh!

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I’m exploring the cracks (or rift valleys, actually) in his arguments.
There’s a basic problem. I suspect he objects to the simple notion of “rules
is rules, mate”! I can dig that, I’m a bit of a libertarian myself, believe it
or not.

But we should obey the speed limit even where it is not strictly necessary.
We don't want to create a culture where residents are fearful, or where
excessive speed in built up areas is "normal and acceptable". We’d prefer
to build a culture of calm, considered progress without undue negative
impact on other road users and residents. Reasonable limits are
commensurate with that notion, and we should back them, or change them
when the consensus of technical and political opinion suggests they are
wrong.

If SafeSpeed could agree with that, I’d let him off the hook. But he can’t,
can he?

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The Highway Code is to driving what a dictionary and grammar rules are to writing.

You might spell everything correctly and obey all the rules of grammar to the letter; but the standard of your writing could still be atrocious. Indeed, you could soon become so bogged down in dogma and contradictory rules that you completely lost sight of what you were trying to do.

As an example, Churchill was renowned as one of our greatest wordsmiths ever, yet a close analysis of much of his work soon reveals a sprinkling of technical grammatical errors.

I would suggest that in both instances "the rules" form an excellent guide to new users, but only when used in conjunction with an expert teacher who can impart both the discretion necessary to apply them, and some idea of what aims are being striven towards. Beyond this they become guides which are mostly followed, but broken either when their rules come into conflict with each other, or with the judgment of an expert applying them to a specific individual situation, who will then trust his instincts in preference to following the rules.

For example, if we all obeyed the highway code to the letter, then zebra crossings would be completely unworkable! It tells pedestrians not to put a foot on the crossing until vehicles have stopped, yet it tells drivers they need not give way to pedestrians unless they are on the crossing. They only work in real life because road users use their judgement and discretion to override the rules.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

No but yeah but yeah but yeah no but yeah no but yeah... yeah that’s.
write it, wood maak; no differans . watsoever : about comunicashun .if
peeple :did bovver ,,not wiv .any. Grammer or wever they speled fings
properly i meen gramar or speling is for chumps only isnt it. And we cud
al get by kwite wel! ;wiv out any ‘of it at all ‘infact most yung @ peeple
nowadays do “so wat the hek lets just do wivout it and get on “wiv it
watdayasay?

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To me, the Highway Code is the same as the driving test - it is purely the minimum standard - there is SO much more!

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Yes, the Highway Code is fine as a baseline, but it must not contain any
false or damaging material. That would be unforgivable, and it should be
changed if such material can be identified and agreed by all.

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Yes, of course you are. Everyone can see that.



Hook? You're fishing, I'll grant you, but with no hook, no line, no sinker, and worst of all in a place where there are absolutely NO FISH.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I do believe you're starting to make sense. Please try to maintain this standard in future.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's there already but could be massively improved with proper management. That's why the Safe Speed manifesto calls for the re-creation of a centre of driving excellence and a programme of 'culture management'.

Naturally you are already aware that it is not the responsibility of the Safe Speed campaign to manage the culture. That responsibility rests squarely with DfT, and I suggest you make them aware of it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

No - if I'm travelling along a road where 60, 70, 80, 90 is perfectly safe, yet the LA has marked it as a 30, then I shall travel at a safe speed, as much to avoid creating congestion and frustration in the other road users following me.
And neither do I wish to see excessive speed in areas where that speed is unsafe.Agreed.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

I don't fink Vicky's listening, Safe Speed. But poor Vicky does allow us to
see how much we depend on societal norms to interact well. The highway
code is a langauge we must learn and use properly. Some of the “rules”
are ambiguous, as JT says. But ones on speeding are not. They are
defined, and we have a social responsibility to try to stay within those
bounds, like it or lump it - I expect you’ll lump it, won’t you

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Yes, a Ministry of Information - George Orwell would be laughing his arse off!

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I disagree with this. There are countless examples of drivers who probably think they are "travelling at a safe speed" which is usually completely the opposite as they end up either tailgating you aggressively, or completely ignoring any potential hazards

There's one particular glaring example near me - Penkford Lane, Burtonwood, 30 limit. At first glance it looks like it should be NSL, but then you see the hidden junctions for farmer which is just round a tree-lined corner, and the driveways which lead straight onto the road. This doesn't stop the idiots thoughtlessly piling down it at 50+ - I bet they had the same ideas as you. It's quite horrible driving on the same road as other users who show no consideration for you, or others. And no, it's not a majority, but it's certainly not a minority.

I would also ask the question what a pedestrian would think of you as you approached them at 80mph on an otherwise clear 30mph road.

I'm afraid as of now I must publically state that I deem any other speed outside the limit as being inappropriate, and while I still don't support safety cameras as a hammer to fix road safety, drivers should always drive at an appropriate speed within the posted speed limit for the road. I can do it without falling asleep, so everyone else should be able to. If you are getting annoyed and frustrated, then you aren't applying COAST properly to the conditions.

Are you suggestiong that there is something wrong with providing honest and accurate information intended to assist citizens in minimising risk?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

If you were to do that, then we'd have (very boring and semantic) problems with the terms that we use. How would you term, for example, 80mph on a motorway in perfect deserted conditions?

I'd suggest that the term 'appropriate' must be applied to describe a speed that is 'safe and appropriate' for the conditions.



I don't have a problem with that until we get to the position where the speed limit overrides vastly more important judgement (in cases where the 'previous' judgement would have dictated a safer use of speed). Unfortunately we have already arrived at this point, and some of the speed limit propoganda needs to be undone. It is undermining higher values.



It isn't reasonable to suggest that everyone can do the things you can do.

And how do you know that doing it makes you safer? I believe that it's actually very unlikely that it does make you safer.

And if it doesn't make you safer, then why are we (national we) doing it?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

What? Travelling at a safe speed?

Then they're not travelling at a safe speed, are they?

Perhaps I should have added "on roads that I know"

Totally agreeIf there's a pedestrian (or possibility of one) then I would have thought that 80mph is not a safe speed...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

No, but yeah, but no, but yeah! The Ministry of Information morphed into
the Ministry of Truth, but truth is a contentious matter, requiring laws,
coppers and all manner of un-english agreement and controls. Sigh … so it
goes.

But some things are easy and uncontroversial, and one of the most
time-honoured easy things for residents to decide is that they don’t
like unconcerned motorists zooming through their streets, knocking them
down and frightening them, and making a lot of disconcerting risk, noise
and smoke while they are about it.

If we don’t want the backlash, let’s not do it to start with, and let’s
encourage others to act well in life. The Highway Code contains a
reasonable approximation of “the truth”, but where it says
MUST, that’s an legal expectation, at present, not just
a tip or hint. There is quite a lot of stuff that doesn’t have the
MUST word, but where it does show up, let’s give it
the benefit of the doubt, yeah?

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Even those limits that are set unreasonably low?

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Even those limits that are set unreasonably low?

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus