Safe Speed Forums

From BBC news story today about TfL run speed awareness course: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5216896.stm



With the implication that it's safe as long as you're at the limit. Is it safe to go down a crowded residential street at 30mph? Chris Lines says it is so it must be. Stupid stupid stupid.

I'm also unhappy that TfL are even involved in running this course.[/url]

The reason so few of us appreciate this is that the statement is false.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

[pedant]
can something be both real and potential at the same time? Is this is a Schrodingers Cat statement?
[/pedant]

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Such courses sicken me. How can ANYONE think that lying to drivers about road safety facts can make them safer? It's complete madness.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

[quote="tgk"]From BBC news story today about TfL run speed awareness course: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5216896.stm

[quote]
Few of us truly appreciate the real and potential dangers of driving even a few miles an hour above the speed limit.
Chris Lines
TfL
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So, if I were to injure said cyclist at 30mph and was clearly not my fault, does that mean if I injured the same cyclist at 31mph, it becomes my fault?
Still, I only do 20mph or less in a residential back street, but Mr. Lines says it's safe to do 30...Must be OK then...

Can I suggest that you obtain a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word LIMIT?

Oh what the heck, I'll do it for you:
dictionary.com
the pertinent definition is:
"The greatest or least amount, number, or extent allowed or possible"
I'll explain this for you - it does not say "the only amount, number or extent allowed". It says the "greatest or least". Just in case you needed this spelling out, the posted legal speed limit under UK law is the UPPER or greatest.

In answer to your question, assuming you are talking about a 30mph zone, if you injured the cyclist whilst travelling at 30mph you WOULD NOT have been breaking the posted legal speed limit, whereas if you had injured the cyclist whilst travelling at 31mph you WOULD have been braking the posted legal speed limit. NO OTHER answer is possible.

In addition, Mr. Lines, whilst lacking in syntactical accuracy, does not say that "travelling at 30mph is safe".

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

no but his choice of words implies that at speeds upto and including the speedlimit the dangers are of a lower magnitude than those at speeds greater than the speed limit, the only additional major danger i can see in exceeding the speedlimit by a couple of miles an hour, assuming the speedlimit was a safe speed, is to my wallet.

Paul - unfortunately - those that only see the greater picture only read the headlines and think that the official picture is the truth - those of us that have chosen to look further and delved deeper , or looked at some of your facts , and started to question the "presented facts" realise that a lot of the goblegook dreamed up by the authorities is in fact fiction. To me - been driving 40 years( no advanced courses - just an advanced dad and uncle of hgv and IAM standard ) - their "facts " just stink - no logical driving appreciation - just a picture that going slowly is good. No appreciation of road craft / anticipation / handling a car in adverse conditions - so what happens if a tyre fails - hello ditch , rather than " contrled my skid" and stopped safely.Driving ike "DRIVING MISS DAISY " MIGHT BE ALL RIGHT , till something untoward hapens - then the skills learnt by pushing a car to the limits comes in usefull, and might just save your life ( and many others around)

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

is the public highway, with MISS DAISY and PEDESTRIANS and PEOPLE WHO DRIVE MORE SLOWLY THAN YOU and CYCLISTS the right place to push your car to the limit?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

He implied that, yes. Poor choice of words, and misguided too.

It behoves the Safespeed members, IMVHO, not to allow themselves, ourselves, to fall into such simple and cheap traps though.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

It's probably a brainstorming topic really, but I reckon we have to consider the possibility that skills honed in quiet safe conditions might one day save lives in extreme circumstances.

I honestly don't know the answer to this. There's a 'general' move away from skid pan training suggesting that it delivers more confidence than ability and hence increases crash rates. But would I give up my skills learnt on skid pans? NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS.

I think it comes down to the fact that some short skid pan courses have taught totally the wrong skills. (Maybe 'how to skid' rather than 'how not to skid'.)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

[quote="SafeSpeed

I think it comes down to the fact that some short skid pan courses have taught totally the wrong skills. (Maybe 'how to skid' rather than 'how not to skid'.)[/quote]

Paul - i think that skid pan training ( never had any -- learnt mine on the open road ,by necesity , to stop going into ditch ( about a year after getting my licence), honed yearly in a carpark ) , is a good thing - more like if you learn how a skid starts , then you are in a better position to learn how to prevent one. Rather the opposite - knowledge is the key to prevention - like my belief in all things driving - learn how accidents happen - then look for ways to prevent them - thats why i find this site invaluable - as a source of educational material -.
Accidents are preventiable - it's knoweledge that helps us be better equiped to look for the causes.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Whilst I criticise the manner in which Lancs sets about getting bums on seats for its Speed Course.. I do hear that most who attend this actually enjoy and get a lot out of it.

They lost the plot by issuing NIPS for silly blips and targetting the wrong candidates... and since tried to rectify after a lot of badgering - but course at least teaches COAST and does not lecture overly the speed issue - based on the comments from those who decided to attend to save points on licence. By the way ... prior offences do not count. If you qualify, as in not probationer and not been on course for three years, you can save a 9 point licence. We know now of two people who took this route at 47 mph in 40 mph and 36 in 30 mph - both recent so it looks like they are abiding by their new rules now. (Swiss family lobbied and ranted over "benefits" of the "34 mph club" meeting like that )

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To be fair, the 'proper' skid pan training was very much about how to come out of a skid, given that the tyres were well up on pressure it would be hard not to skid the vehicle. So would recommend skid pan training.

Likewise there is a nice large car park near me that at the wee hours of the morning is empty bar me, every car I've had I always take over there to get a feel for the brakes (how they feel, when the abs kicks in and what it feels like, I drove an Astra and the abs kicking in is a definate thumping on the foot, where as the C4 I'm currently driving is a series of gentle 'thuds'). When it gets really wet, icey or if there's enough some snow I do the same.

I wouldn't dream of doing this on the open highway but on a large car park or an airfield I can use then I have found it to be of benefit.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

You seem to be missing the point...Look at it this way. Why is it safe for me to drive at 130mph on a busy German autobahn and unsafe for me to drive at 90mph on a deserted British motorway?
Answer..? Revenue.
The fact is speed doesn't kill, in the same way as a gun doesn't kill.
Chris Lines believes that ANY speed above the posted limit is dangerous...IT'S NOT!
Just because an accident happens at 31mph doesn't mean to say that the same accident won't happen at 30mph.

I think actually it's Mr. Lines and the SCP's have got it wrong - confusing legality and safety. Whilst there is sometimes an overlap, it's not a requirement (and it should be). As I said, all other things being equal, flattening the cyclist under the limit means it would have taken place under the legal prosecution limit, flattening him / her over the limit would have broken that particular aspect of the law.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Here goes, first contribution from a 49-year-old biker with an unsullied (so far) licence, so I must be doing something right.

Successive governments have jumped on the 'speed kills' bandwagon, trying to persuade us that...

1) it's automatically dangerous to exceed the speed limits
2) if we do we are criminals
3) we will be prosecuted if caught.

As we are
3) not prosecuted if we do not exceed the speed limits and
2) therefore not criminals

it's hardly surprising if the last piece of the logical equation

1) not exceeding the speed limits is therefore automatically not dangerous

becomes accepted.

The truth - that exceeding the speed limits is not in itself dangerous and that obeying the speed limits at all times is not in itself safe - does not fit with the above and, more importantly, cannot be measured by machine so we arrive at our current situation, cameras all over contributing very little to road safety.

I think you're going to like it here.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Check the 'joined' date, I do like it here, I've just been lurking for a couple of years!

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Fatshoutybloke

Two years?

Can any lurkers beat that? (In case anyone doesn't know 'lurkers' are people who read but don't post.)

Anyway MickW, to posting.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety