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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 19:14 
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[Attempting to resurrect the thread]

Thanks Pete317, you gave me the gist of the answer.

I’ve since found a seemingly excellent page explaining all on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect

From what I understand, I would tend to agree with you that greater CO2 levels will have a small and ever diminishing effect on GW. It is interesting to read that water plays such a significant role as a greenhouse gas and, more importantly, as a negative feedback control mechanism – very much the opposite of Venus.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 21:28 
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well they couldn't exactly blame people for it, could they?

Quote:
How Australia was born

Frank Walker
June 4, 2006

SCIENTISTS believe they have finally solved one of Earth's greatest mysteries: what caused the great extinction of life hundreds of millions of years ago.

The answer was revealed yesterday when an American team announced it had discovered the world's biggest meteor crater almost two kilometres under the ice in Antarctica.

They say a meteor almost 50 kilometres wide caused a 500-kilometre-wide crater deep under the Wilkes Land region of Antarctica, directly south of Australia.

The massive explosion from the impact probably created the continent of Australia, forcing it to break away from the existing land mass.

The incredible discovery caused huge excitement among Australian scientists last night. It could be the missing link in the geological formation of the continents. It would also answer why life on Earth was almost completely wiped out hundreds of millions of years ago.

The meteor the size of Sydney struck 250 million years ago and must have been the biggest explosion ever seen on the planet, far bigger than the 10-kilometre-wide meteor which hit east of Mexico 65 million years ago, wiping out the dinosaurs.

Ohio State University scientists who found the crater said the massive Antarctic crater could explain the global extinction in the Permian-Triassic period when all animal life on Earth died out, clearing the way for the dinosaurs.

The massive impact probably broke up the ancient continent of Gondwanaland, pushing Australia out on its long drift north to its current position. The landmass that became India shot off first, while Africa and South America broke off later.

"This Wilkes Land impact is much bigger than the impact that killed the dinosaurs, and probably would have caused catastrophic damage at the time," said Ralph von Frese, professor of geological sciences at Ohio State University.

Professor von Frese and Laramie Potts, a postdoctoral researcher in geological sciences, led the team of Ohio University, NASA, Russian and Korean scientists that discovered the crater.

They reported their preliminary results yesterday to the American Geophysical Union joint assembly meeting at Baltimore.

The scientists used gravity fluctuations measured by satellites to peer beneath Antarctica's icy surface, and found a 321-kilometre-wide plug of mantle material - a "mascon" in geological parlance - that had risen up into the Earth's crust.

Mascons are the planetary equivalent of a bump on the head. They form where large objects slam into a planet's surface. When the scientists overlaid their gravity image with airborne radar images of the ground beneath the ice, they found the mascon perfectly centred inside a circular ridge 482 kilometres wide.

"Based on what we know about the geologic history of the region, this Wilkes Land mascon formed recently by geologic standards - probably about 250 million years ago," Professor von Frese said.

Professor Michael Archer, dean of the Faculty of Science at University of NSW, said the crater could prove to be the missing link science has been waiting for.

"A meteor that size would have punctured right through the crust of the Earth and caused enormous damage to the planet," he said.

In that period 95 per cent of life on Earth was destroyed, he said.

"It's possible this is the missing key to what caused it."


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 03:30 
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Apparently the above is part of the British Governments answer to Global Warming.
The theory is that as the rest of the world bakes in the heat, Britain will be building Nuclear Power staions, which when the wires are reversed, will DRIVE these giant fans, and cool the bl**dy place down a bit!

Well it's about as plausible as any other Government policy so far! :x

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 09:09 
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I've posted loads about this.

Its all bollocks in my humble opinion.

Someone asked 'why would they lie?' the point that everyone seems to miss is that the conventional wisdom for mitigating the effects of 'climate chance' are all largely 'socialist' in outlook, ban big cars, less consumption, love thy neighbour etc etc.......now can anyone tell me where all the citizen smiths and greenham commoners went?..............well they didn't just vanish, they all grew up, and started running their countries.......mainly european nations!

The nuclear solution is great....Jonathan Porritt who now chairs some sort of climate chance commission, has come out and said that its no good and won't solve anything.....suprise given that he's a big noise in greenpeace. The nuclear issue is the one thing that really betrays the roots of the climate change 'movement'....Its bloody left wing, the loony left if you like but now they're wearing suits and their hair is greying.

Paul is spot on with the declining oil reserves thing, if they are declining, as we are told, then soon there won't be any CO2 to emit, so the more we use the quicker we'll save our planet.

Its a self perpetuating myth, like speed kills but on a larger scale....BUt has similar themes, mainly centred around the 'we know best', 'the individual is selfish' mantras.

Notice that g'lobal warming' has now become 'climate change' just to widen the net to include unusually cold weather.

Its all emperor's new clothes stuff, mark my words the increasing alarmism will peak in the next year or two then quietly subside...forgotten about like an embarassing drunken christmas party. The problem is that when the maldives doesn't actually disappear then some people may look a little foolish.

rant over.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:04 
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I'm finding that I'm having fewer doubts about global warming than I was. In an ideal world I would avoid relying on 'authorities', but since it's impractical to conduct my own experiments, I am pretty much forced to. The people I'm listening to our NOT the British government or anyone like that, but rather people like Michael Shermer, or Patrick Moore (not the astronomer, but the environmentalist, and he is a very sensible guy who quit Greenpeace after they became loons). Some of the wilder claims and misconceptions make me cringe, but thay're the extremists, not the mainstream, and shouldn't be assumed to represent everyone.

I also heard a really good episode of the podcast "Skeptics guide to the Universe", and they encouraged a cautious but rational approach. They held short of calling people 'deniers', but did talk about something they called a 'denialist strategy', which is where any scientific evidence can be brought into doubt if someone is prepared to work hard enough at it. This is a non-objective approach and is definitely remiscient of things like creationism and psychic phenomena. For example the water vapour thing: this is not scientifically correct* and has been widely debunked, yet is is still circulated as the "Number 1 thing the scientists don't want you to know about."

* Water vapour is in a natural equilibrium. Adding more doesn't cause a long term increase in level, because the atmosphere cannot hold more water so it falls back as rain. Adding CO2 does cause a permenant increase in level, so it's not comparable.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:03 
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Zamzara wrote:
For example the water vapour thing: this is not scientifically correct* and has been widely debunked, yet is is still circulated as the "Number 1 thing the scientists don't want you to know about."

* Water vapour is in a natural equilibrium. Adding more doesn't cause a long term increase in level, because the atmosphere cannot hold more water so it falls back as rain. Adding CO2 does cause a permenant increase in level, so it's not comparable.


Hang on a moment!

CO2, by itself, cannot cause more than a barely significant rise in global temperatures. This has been known for more than a century now. The IPCC calculated that a doubling of CO2 levels from pre-industrial levels would, by itself, lead to a temperature increase of 0.6 to 1.2 degrees - which was why it was regarded as a non-issue for so long.
The 'enhanced' greenhouse theory, which is what all the hoo-ha is about, goes something like this: CO2 creates a small increase in atmospheric temperature, which in turn leads to more water vapour (warm air holds more vapour) which, being a far more potent 'greenhouse' gas than CO2, leads to vastly more warming.

Note that it's they that say that water vapour is important.

What they don't say is that, with the amount of water vapour currently in the atmosphere, average global temperatures should be almost 80 degrees! The fact that they're not means that water vapour really is a potent feedback mechanism - but a negative one, not a positive one.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 19:11 
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The list of scares in the name of raising taxes is scary. What happened to the hole in the ozone and by the 1990's we would all be walking outside and be burnt to death? We now have scientists telling us the Sun is good for us we need it for christs sake.
One thing we do know about Government what raises taxes becomes the truth but people forget that 17,000 world scientists signed a petion to say GW was a scam!
Same as Big oil making big profits out of war. In other words what the big companies and also governments can make money from goes.
This is stairing you in the face.
Remember the IRA we had more bombs etc in this Country with much less terror laws but to 'protect' us our liberty is taken away.
If you really think the London bombins were terrorists there is one thing I do know.
They were found too quick there is that many CCTV cams in London alone that it would have taken them months to find these people not a couple of weeks. Also as in 911 they were doing a 'run' of this happening at the time we know the company and it suddenly did not exist after this!
To control people you need fear to make them think that you will save them you give them hope = total control.
Fear hope even Hitler burnt his own people to instill fear so whats the difference?
Like it or not there is more scams ran by big companies and big money than what we would like but it is all true.
Even down to the way drug ccompanies control Doctors and the NHS.
JJ

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 19:17 
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watched some tacky movie last week about a sudden ice age that grips the world. It was made in 1998. I guess there's not much chance of a sequel
:lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 20:06 
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johnsher wrote:
I guess there's not much chance of a sequel :lol:


Ah! remember Bobby's return to Dallas?
Anything is possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 21:39 
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:D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 02:31 
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smeggy wrote:
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:D


:rotfl:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 21:02 
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It is soooooo good to read views from other like-minded folk. Most of the people I speak to are lemming-like in their, "But all the scientists say it's true, so it must be", attitude. All the scientists do NOT say it's true but there are lots who rely on their "research" funding for saying it's true.

We live on a very unstable planet. Man has the arrogance to think that it should stay nice and comfy - forever - just to suit him. Most sound climate scientists agree that we are approaching a new Ice Age and what we are really seeing is just a spike.

Lots of great comments here from people who are prepared to look for themselves, recognise bull when they see it, spot a government control mechanism and speak their minds.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 21:31 
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I can sum this all up in one sentence...

The fact that humans consider the fact that their presence on this planet has anything whatsoever to do with the statistical vagaries of the vast thermodynamic system that they refer to as 'The Climate', is clear proof of their utter arrogance as the dominant species.

So there!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 21:50 
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MGBGT wrote:
I can sum this all up in one sentence...

The fact that humans consider the fact that their presence on this planet has anything whatsoever to do with the statistical vagaries of the vast thermodynamic system that they refer to as 'The Climate', is clear proof of their utter arrogance as the dominant species.

So there!


AMEN.

However, dominant species? Yeah, OK. Most intelligent species? er, no, I think not.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 22:13 
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Blimey! and I thought I was paranoid!

So let me get this right. Most governments round the world are controlling their populations by the use of fear of global warming / climate change / call it what you will except America which is trying to comfort them by not really believing it so they are controlling their population with the fear of terrorism instead and Tony Blair has a foot in each potential apocalypse just to hedge his bets...

Most governments are only funding scientists who say that global warming IS happening as a result of man's activities except the US who are funding them to say that it's NOT.

It's hard to know what to believe really!

The hole in the ozone layer hasn't frazzled everyone in Australia to a crisp but they do seem to have an increased incidence of skin cancer. Acid rain hasn't actually completely deforested the Northern half of mainland Europe but they do have a few skanky looking pine trees.

Maybe the truth is that this is a real effect and it is happening and it is (partly) to do with man but not as much as the authorities think?

Either way, surely getting away from being so heavily dependant on a fuel source that seems to predominantly lie under the most politically or climactically hostile parts of the world can probably only be a good thing, can't it?!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 23:14 
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Mole wrote:
Blimey! and I thought I was paranoid!

So let me get this right. Most governments round the world are controlling their populations by the use of fear of global warming / climate change / call it what you will except America which is trying to comfort them by not really believing it so they are controlling their population with the fear of terrorism instead and Tony Blair has a foot in each potential apocalypse just to hedge his bets...

Most governments are only funding scientists who say that global warming IS happening as a result of man's activities except the US who are funding them to say that it's NOT.

It's hard to know what to believe really!

The hole in the ozone layer hasn't frazzled everyone in Australia to a crisp but they do seem to have an increased incidence of skin cancer. Acid rain hasn't actually completely deforested the Northern half of mainland Europe but they do have a few skanky looking pine trees.

Maybe the truth is that this is a real effect and it is happening and it is (partly) to do with man but not as much as the authorities think?

Either way, surely getting away from being so heavily dependant on a fuel source that seems to predominantly lie under the most politically or climactically hostile parts of the world can probably only be a good thing, can't it?!


That seems to sum it up pretty well. Yes, of course we should be learning to use our non-renewable resources more wisely and be investing heavily in alternatives.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 23:29 
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This might be a really silly question but who said that oil would run out, and on what basis? When did dead vegetation, animals, pressure etc stop becoming oil? What does it become now?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 23:46 
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I think we're getting through it a bit quicker than they're making it!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 23:54 
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[quote="Mole"]I think we're getting through it a bit quicker than they're making it![/quote]

So do we know the rate of production compared to consumption?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 23:57 
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gopher wrote:
This might be a really silly question but who said that oil would run out, and on what basis? When did dead vegetation, animals, pressure etc stop becoming oil? What does it become now?

It takes millions of years. We're using it vastly quicker than it's being laid down. Having said that, I don't see we're going to run out in the next 100 years.

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