Safe Speed Forums

In another topic



I think this issue is complex and ambiguous at mini roundabouts.

Suppose there's a mini roundabout at the site of a former T junction. I'm approaching on the 'leg' of the T planning to turn right. Another vehicle is approaching from the right, at a reasonable speed intending to go straight on.

Although I have arrived at the mini roundabout FIRST, I can see that if I go I will force the approaching vehicle to brake. The HC appears to suggest that I can go, and the approaching vehicle must give way to me (effectively ahead) as I am 'on the roundabout'.

Well, I think that's NOT what the Highway Code intended and I should wait. In fact I do wait.

However as mini roundabouts become more complex, sometimes it is diffuclt to safely account for all the possible combinations of approaching / conflicting vehicles, and I have been known to wait unnecessarily. But this seems to me to be an unavoidable consequence of the variety of techniques that people employ at mini roundabouts.

I think it's a mess and I don't know the answer.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I like mini-roundabouts, I think they work well most of the time.

I agree that you should give-way to someone who is approaching from the right, its the only safe option, even you could be on the roundabout before them. Of course it should be said that those going straight on should approach the roundabout slower and with much more caution then if it was a straight road. However if someone is approaching from the right at speed there really is no option but to wait.

If the rounabout was very busy then I would consider taking a sub-standard gap with someone approaching from the right providing the vehicle was approaching at a sensible speed, but I would still not 'pull out on them' if it was going to force them to abruptly brake.

As to the answer? Is there one other the trying to drum into people the merits of a bit of give-and-take?

Agreed. Many drivers approaching a mini roundabout on the major road (e.g. the vehicle approaching from the right in your scenario) appear to treat the thing as a T-Junction, expecting you (emerging on to the major road) to give way. I nearly had the front of my old Cavalier taken off at a mini-roundabout in Lyneham village in just this way.
That taught me not to assume that, simply because I've stepped foot on the roundabout I've taken control of it (in a manner of speaking); we must also consider what someone else is going to do whether they be right or technically wrong to do so.
The near miss I recently had occured at a large mini, where I had already encroached on the roundabout before an approaching vehicle appeared. Because he had a speed advantage he got to the crucial point at about the same time as me, but because he appeared to be expecting me to go ahead (rather than right), he carried on.
I sometimes wonder if these things don't cause more problems than they solve.

At the end of the day, no one should approach any roundabout, junction or whatever so fast that they can't stop if they need to. I've seen people round here join and cross roundabouts at 50mph+ as if the obstruction wasn't even there...

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I did say half a mile away, not on top of it!

and not just mini-abouts

It is obvious from the post above that mini-roundabouts are causing some confusion. This is what they are designed to do - the idea being that confusion tends to slow traffic down.

We have had T-junctions converted to mini roundabouts (or worse, double mini-roundabouts) to slow traffic down.

Don't frown bluely - I thought it was an interesting and important spin-off from your original point which is exactly why I started a new thread.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

There are several former T-junctions now mini-roundabouts near me, and most people treat them as if the priorities haven't changed at all. I would be into 3 figures if I counted the number of times I would have been hit from a car appraoching from my left, had I not assumed the other drive was a fool, (the most recent about 2 hours ago).

Like so many aspects of driving, I believe the problems with mini-roundabouts is one of ignorance. As Sixy has said, no-one should be approaching a junction without the option of stopping. If my area is typical, most drivers appear to leave this option at home.

I often try and push for mini roundabouts at junctions instead of signals, as they are much more user friendly at times of low vehicles flows and can also have a better throughput at busy times.

One option is to put double give way lines down instead of the single marking as the double line is mandatory and the single only advisory, but then this is only useful after an accident I suppose.

And I agree that this is the best way to treat these (and driving generally) is that everyone else has no clue what they're doing and drive accordingly.

I have always taken the rules of roundabouts to mean exactly what the HC says:



It does not say or even imply that the "first one there" has priority, and I think if somebody ran into the back of you it would be treated as if you had pulled out a T-junction in front of them. Basically you shouldn't do anything that would require a vehicle approaching from the right to take avoiding action.

Gareth

OK so this doesn't apply to miniroundabouts, but you can't always apply that if people are approaching the roundabout so fast that you can't safely pull onto it.

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

That's changed then. (Good job too!)

It used to say 'give way to traffic already on the roundabout'. (I'm sure of it, but my old Highway Codes are packed away, so it is difficult to check.)

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hmm, but no attempt has been made to communicate the change to the driving public in general.

And in this light, what's the point of turning perfectly good T-junctions into mini-roundabouts apparently in the hope that it will slow down the more significant road along the top bar of the T?

Got a couple (in a row) near me that went in maybe 3 years ago where there is absolutely no argument that the road coming up the T is of equal merit.

Ian

Its not to slow down the main road, or shouldn't be. Its to relieve conjestion on the adjoining road by give all three arms equal priority.

The busier exit (the one where most people are heading) will also normally get the most priority because at a busy time, you should go when someone goes into your road.

Of course it is helpful if people indicate. Don't approach a mini-roundabout with no indicator then suddenly turn right.

They are also particularly useful where traffic is turning right from the main road onto the side road, and traffic from the main road going ahead is not being held up indefinitely by the traffic in front. (They would of course have to wait for traffic coming from the side road into their path).

Also a lot safer of course for traffic turning right out of the side road.

3-way traffic signals are another option if they are fairly big roads, particularly if both are 2-lanes. It is possible to have pedestrian crossing too without having a 4th phase.

The problem is that most drivers have no idea how to indicate at major roundabouts let alone minis. I seem to recall that has been discussed at length on here before as well!

The current Highway Code is far from clear on the ubject IMHO

Quite.

I get it alot round here (Swindon IS the Europian test capital for roundabouts, apparently ). People don't indicate when turning across your path and then glare at you! I've even had someone shout at me to indicate when I was going straight over!

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Many, many years ago (too many!) when I was taught to drive, I was told that you only indicated left to leave a roundabout. No signal meant that you were continuing round. My instructor told me that you should not indicate right as it was impossible to turn right onto a roundabout.

Mini-roundabouts, I do signal and whilst observing the priorities, tend to drive straight over the blob of paint in the road.

I don't know if the system has changed, but that is completely incorrect.

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.