Safe Speed Forums

Posting this cos bit stumped as to why pedestrian lights have to be so close to traffic island exits.
First of all, I want to thank the driver of the car I collided with. He was helpful, concerned and the poor chap tried to take the blame when really, in the eyes of an insurance company, it would automatically have been my fault as I went into the back of him.
I was coming back from a day trip on my bike to Skegness. Just got dark and was heading out of Nottingham towards the M42. Last island onto the A453, I was going straight on but as I negotiated the island, a chap pulled onto the island from the left. Taking evasive action and sounding my horn to make him aware of my presence, I snapped open throttle slightly (I was crawling anyway so speed went up to around 20mph as I left the island) and swerved slightly to avoid him. While all of this was going on, the driver in front of the car infront of me slammed his anchors on as the pedestrian lights turned amber, he didn't stop in time and in the interests of safety, should have not attempted to stop. The result was that the driver in front slammed his brakes on, my attention turned away from the bloke who had pulled out on me to what was happening ahead but it was too late. Brakes on (too hard - panic braked), back wheel of bike off the ground, front wheel sliding across the floor BANG! Hit him with the rear wheel in the air! The chap I hit was so concerned, "I'm so sorry, its my fault, I had no choice cos I would have hit car in front....."etc. Explained that I was more to blame, shouldn't have panic braked etc. In the end, we agreed that accidents happen and blame was placed nowhere.
Thing is, if the lights had been a few feet further away from island, both of us would have seen what was going on with plenty of time. These lights are literaly right on top of exit, I was infact still positioned with the back of the bike still on island proper when I came to a stop! I do admit that some blame should fall with me because I should have reacted quicker and not panicked. All very well in hindsight!
And as a matter of interest, no one actually used the lights while they were on red, they must have pressed the button then had opportunity to cross before lights changed!
This is the first time I have collided with another vehicle. Result? Bike now off road. Hardly any damage to car I hit. Arm strapped up (tendon and ligaments they said at hospital) and generally feeling battered! Mike Tyson and boxing ring comes to mind!

_________________
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Sorry to hear about your crash.

I can't quite picture the situation. What sort of "island" are we talking about?

Get well soon.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hard luck, mate. Easily done. Eyes and wits have to be everywhere at the same time don't they...

The principal reasons for having the crossings next to the roundabouts is to save pedestrians lots of walking. If a pedestrian is only crossing one road, it doesn't matter where the crossing is. For any more than one, each extra leg means pedestrians going to the roundabout and back, just to get to the crossing.

In the Midlands and North of England, a roundabout is commonly referred to as an "island" - as in the notorious Switch Island (although that, to confuse matters, is no longer a roundabout)

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Average size with trees and bushes in the middle. View obstructed till you get onto island. 4 exits. I was going 'straight on', bloke who pulled out came from left exit. Lights so close to island on exit, that when I actually came to my er.....forced stop, rear tyre was sticking out onto island. Another foot or two of road and probably would have stopped in time. Bloke that tried to stop for lights ended up straddling crossing, If that had been me I would have made the decision that I would be unlikely to stop safely in time without causing risk to following traffic and as lights would still have been amber, would have carried on.

_________________
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Right. Thanks. So passed in front of the guy who pulled out? Then you paid attention to that risk and missed what was going on ahead?

If I'm right, then it's a "failure to look where you're going". I don't mean that in a harsh or critical way - more as a clue to help you prevent it ever happening again. Blaming the positioning of the lights isn't really going to help is it?

I see almost every crash as a "learn from your mistakes" opportunity.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I knew that, but had forgotten while reading the accident description. Thanks for the reminder.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

You aren't being harsh Paul but the way I see it, I have one pair of eyes. I cannot look everywhere at once and the reason I panic braked to start with, was I saw brake lights come on in my periphial vision. Neither am I blaming the lights but do have to ask if it is necessary to place them so close to other hazards, especially as alot of the time, pedestrians dont use them anyway, they cross further up.
I cannot learn from this lesson, the greater risk seemed to be from my left and if I had not of seen him,I would not have taken evasive action and I would not have alerted him to my presence and chances are he would have crossed my path directly and I just would have collided with him rather than the other car. What alerted me to him was what we motorcyclists call 'observation', look all around, assess risks and never forget the 'lifesaver' cos that is what it is! 13 years of being a motorcyclist and these observations have saved me from other road users lack of 'observation' many a time previously. This is the first time I have collided with another vehicle. A painful experience that has taken both me and my bike off the road for at least a couple of weeks, but it could have been worse, it could have been the other car coming from the left that I could have collided with, that would have been alot worse.
My biggest mistake here was taking the wrong evasive action in the first place, maybe I should have swerved back towards inside of island and gone round again. Saying that, there could have been a car in the right hand lane, everything happened so fast, I cant remember seeing one but then my attention was to the left. Maybe I should have slammed my anchors on then, instead of swerving and accelerating out of the way. Saying that, I could then have been hit by another car from behind. Its all ifs and buts and maybes but I am quite sure that if it happened again, my instincts would tell me to do exactly the same as I did last night.
As another point for you Paul, I was not passed the car that pulled out on me when cars infront braked, he was still a risk to me and my skin! My 'risk priorities' changed with the blink of an eye, but that still wasn't quick enough!

_________________
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

GSXR,

Can you post a sketch? It'd need to be "hosted" as well to post to the forum. If you can't do that, can you email me a sketch at all? If you can I'll host it and post it.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

How on earth do I post a sketch? I do not own a scanner and my right arm is strapped and in a sling anyway! Typing with one hand is bad enough but cant close right hand fully round pen! It would look like my four year old daughters drawn it!
As I don't have a scanner, is there another way of doing it? I am not all that good with computers! Can I draw with a mouse?

_________________
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

It's possible to draw with the computer - you need a "paint" program.

Paint Shop Pro is availabe as a trial version for download from
http://www.jasc.com but it expires after 30 days or something.

The last non-expiring version was 4.12 and I just found it:
http://www.baldguyweb.com/downloads/psp412.exe here for you.

You'll find it tough I expect - there's a lot to learn about - but if you've got nothing better to do...

You can email me the results and I can include them in a forum post if you like.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm up for learning! Recently made redundant (good job in a way cos I'd be off sick!) so have got a little time. Will give it a go! Typical female though I'm afraid Paul, takes me ages to get to grip with some of this computer lark!

_________________
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

GSXR sent this along:

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Not being a biker I've no idea what a near miss is like for riders. I've only ridden pillion a few times and felt very vulnerable compared to being in a car (good fun though). So I imagine a near miss is pretty distracting, which makes the collision with the blue car easier to understand. From the diagram a collision looks unlikely if the yellow car had stayed put.

Could it be that GSXR avoided a SMIDSY with the yellow car only to run into the blue one? It's only supposition but I doubt the driver of the yellow car would have pulled out knowing there was a bike there, unless for some reason they thought GSXR was going to take the first exit rather than go straight over. From the yellow car POV it looks like either failure to look, looked but didn't see or misjudged path of another vehicle.

GSXR, I'm playing devil's advocate with this question and no offense is meant by it. Is it at all possible that something could have given the driver of the yellow car the impression that you were turning left? A turn signal you'd forgetten to switch off (probably happened to all of us at one time or another)? Pointing the bike as if you were going down that road and then chaging direction? Anything like that? (Of course, they should have waited anyway, so they still made an error.) If not I imagine they just didn't see you, which just goes to show that you don't need to be actually in a crash in order to cause one. As you say, you shouldn't have panic braked, but equally you shouldn't have been put in that situation by the behaviour of another road user.

Hope your arm feels better soon.

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Could this one have started life as a screen pillar SMIDSY?

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/smidsy.html

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Could be... which has made me think of something else. I think drivers sometimes forget that sight isn't the only sense they can use to find out what's going on around them. I mean, emergency vehicles have sirens for a reason, don't they? But cars, and maybe bikes as well for all I know, are getting quieter and also better at cutting out external noise. That's without even getting onto the subject of over loud stereos. I wonder if it's becoming harder to hear other vehicles coming. Okay, obviously not as important as being able to see 'em, but could this be adding to the problem?

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Highly possible. Since returning to biking myself I'm all to aware of how vulnerable I am, and try to prepare for the person who looks but doesn't see.
GSXR, do you wear a Hi-Viz vest when you are riding? I started wearing one, just to increase my visibility that little bit more - I realise this is unlikely to help if you are hidden behind someones 'A' pillar though.



GSXR, where exactly were you when the yellow car pulled out? Its quite difficult on a bike to look as if you're going one way then at the last second switch to going another. I reckon she'd have been leaning slightly right as she came around.

My turn signal wasn't on, I am 100% sure of that. I knew where I was going so my body language should have been another indication to other road users. However, it was dark, the car following me onto the island turned left so it is quite likely that the driver that pulled out saw some lights, an indicator and failed to see me at all.
You are right about the panic braking. I have been put in this position before but obviously not quite close enough in the past for collision to occur. The panic I felt at the time is a feeling I do not wish to feel again and neither would I wish others to feel it. I feel the collision itself was my fault because as an experienced rider with a clean licence, I should have been able to control my instincts and reactions better and should not have panicked.
I should not have been put in the position by the car that pulled out on me, that I agree with, but at the same time, it is something that is all too common nowadays and I come to expect and as much as possible, anticipate.
Thanks for the 'get well', I am a pretty hardy sort, I bounce as they say , its my confidence I am going to have to work on.

_________________
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

D'oh! I didn't think of that. Told you I was no biker, didn't I? I was just trying to think things that might have given a misleading impression to the driver, but okay, let's forget about that particular one then. Foot going back in mouth now.

Seems like SMIDSY it is then. And from watching other drivers on the road it seems to be fairly common. Jeez, some of them can't spot my car, which is 15 foot long and bright red... what hope is there that they'll see a bike?

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I dont have a high viz vest, my leathers have reflective stips on the shoulders, arms and ankles. Parts of my boots ar reflective too. I have also seen some reflective 'rim stripes' which I am going to invest in when bike is sorted. These make the bike more visible from the side and can be used elsewhere so going to stick them on front of my forks too, although thats like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted I admit, but future prevention is very much in the fore of my mind!

My body language should have told a driver where I was headed, saying that, it was dark.

As for the noise bikes make, I have a race can on my bike which makes it slightly louder than standard exhaust at lower revs, at higher cruising revs, it isn't much different to standard exhaust.

_________________
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.