Safe Speed Forums

Bit of a lengthy post this one, but the recent debate on reducing the rural NSL got me thinking about my recent experiences on a fast NSL road I drive daily (A6068 between Colne and Cross Hills), and what actually causes crashes on them.
I've had three very close calls at more or less the same location on this road within a very short time - but all three involved overtaking. The section in question is at the start/end of a very straight fast section about halfway along (I regularly top 70 should conditions allow and even confess to hitting 90 on a couple of occasions). Anyway....

1) I was following a van at about 55/60 just before reaching this section - perfectly normal reasonable speed. The van had started to accelerate in anticipation of this section and I was doing so too. In front of the van I noticed a car on our side of the road, overtaking and heading towards us. There was a sort of double-take moment as I realised what was happening and how bloody close he was - he was shifting!! At the point I realised this I noticed the van in front brake sharply and of course I did too - slammed on very hard, (but not so as to skid). The van stopped dead, I stopped behind him (thankfully I keep good stopping distances), and the overtaking car just missed the van as he pulled in, and was not completely back on his side of the road as he passed me. I'm also very grateful I was not being tailgated. Now my immediate reaction was to blame the overtaker - however see incident #2

2) This one was actually a reversal of roles to incident #1 - I was overtaking in the same direction and at the same spot as the overtaker in #1 (a few yards further back I think). Now I was travelling at about 70 - clear straight highly visible section of road. I notice I'm rapidly approaching a much slower car (I hazard a guess he was doing somewhere between 40-45). Not a problem - road was clear, I had my momentum up, high speed differential and should be able to overtake swiftly and safely. However, as I started to pull out and overtake, my speed differential dropped. I hadn't slowed; it would appear the overtakee decided to accelerate. I was however, just getting past when two cars appeared round the rapidly approaching bend. Snap decision - I floored it and managed to get back in, though not without pushing my car's cornering capabilities to the limit. And causing the oncoming cars to slow considerably with headlights flashing at me. This is the only one of the three where I question my own judgement - should I have braked and pulled back in behind the overtakee. Or did I really get my initial speed differential judgement horribly wrong (I really do doubt the latter though)

3) And this one - same direction, bit further back from #1 involved being stuck behind a slow moving HGV, van and car. HGV was doing between 35 & 40. However the van and car were both tailgating the HGV and showing no interest in overtaking. I decided to hold back and wait for a good overtaking chance. Sure enough, one arose - I followed my usual procedure - ie drop back, accelerate on my side of road, and then ensure it's still clear before pulling out. I was going rapidly past the car that was directly in front of me, when for some reason the van driver decided to pull out and barely accelerate!! Quick reactions stopped me running into the back of him, but he was barely going past the HGV - he got halfway along it when oncoming cars appeared. So he braked and pulled back in behind the HGV, and I'm stuck next to the car having lost all momentum with cars approaching. All I could do was brake and pull back into my original spot behind the car, (and was greeted by various gesticulations as the oncoming cars passed me - "the crazy insane idiot who drives on the wrong side of the road" as they will have seen it)

All three of these incidents could have resulted in very nasty, potentially fatal crashes. But not one of them would have been caused by speeding - the last one in fact was at around 40mph. However they did all involve overtaking frustratingly slow vehicles. Surely if the speed limit is unnecessarily reduced to 40mph then incidents like these will increase and therefore a lot more crashes than at present will result.

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

Whenever I reply to a thread in here, I'm conscious that my posts on a second read the following day can sometimes appear a bit "rightious". If that happens here, please accept my apologiy. I am trying to put an alternative point of view, and NOT saying it is necessarily better than the one with which I am comparing.
I guess the only thing that you might have been able to do differently on this one would have been to brake fractionally earler on "autopilot" - sort of "preaction" to what the van you were following inevitably was going to do. Also worth looking out for an off-road escape lane if possible - to avoid the van coming at you backwards if, after it has stopped, the oncoming overtaker is certainly going to plough into it - or in the event of you being tailgated by something big and heavy not reacting in time to the situation.


What sort of car do you have, and are you in any way relying on the slipstream to slingshot you past things? I ask because if your car is generally low power, it is surprising how quickly speed can drop off when you pull out of traffic into an open lane.

Despite some aggressive "being overtaken" reactions reported in other threads, I still maintain that it's best that the vehicle being or about to be passed is aware of the situation if possible - I nearly always give a headlight flash or a quick pip on the horn as I pull out.

The odd time this has happened to me, I've mede the decision (and very occasionally changed it, requiring dramatic power or braking) as soon as I realise the differential speed has dropped off. Typically this is noticible before other cars coming the other way come into view - if not I suggest some "preaction" - either aborting or gunning it should be the reply to a loss of differential speed - before signs of any oncoming traffic.

Are you sure you're not mistaking "no interest in overtaking" for "very interested, but such a lousy driver so as to be too close and therefore unable to overtake"?

The problem with accelerating and then pulling out is two-fold: a) The chances are that the van and likely the HGV were unaware of your intentions until they were well underway. b) Temporarily at least, you are restricting your own view of what's happening in front of the lorry - including what might be coming toward you around the bend at the end of the straight. I say better to pull out early to overcome both of these - you still have the option of getting back in and braking - you're not committed until you're level or almost level with the first car.

This is classic. He likely realised that an opportunity had arisen as he was on a straight, and was reassured to some degree having (possibly) seen you on the wrong side of the road, therefore realised he could cautiously come out, when he then saw/thought it was clear enough for him, so stuck his foot down. All dramatically wrong, but sadly, sufficiently common to be one to watch out for. I can't recall any "trebles" I've done in recent years on single carriageway roads, probably for this very reason.

The odd time I've had an overtaker pull out in front of me while I've been overtaking, I've *always* got back over, into whatever gap I could find. In this case, I'd have had the same gap as you - but I think/hope long before the van aborted his manoeuvre. Once he's out, you're effectively unsighted and the only safe place is back on your own side of the road. I've missed many an opportunity of overtaking by getting bacxk in - and saved being hung out a few times.

Given such a concentration of close calls in the same location, I can't help wondering if there is something deceptive about this location - perhaps trees or similar make the straight tlook a lot longer than it actually is?

it does sound like it's deceptive.

in cases 2 or 3 how long had you been behind & observing the overtakee(s) behaviour?

in case 2 you rapidly approach and then pass (fair enough) if you'd have been forced to follow for a bit perhaps you might have observed this drivers variations in speed (however logical/illogical) and been more cautious in the overtake.
i can think of a couple of times i've come across a slower vehicle and missed the immediately obvious overtake in favour of a quick sanity check and pass at the next opportunity.

as for 3, i don't think i have and probably wouldn't attempt a treble (nice lingo roger) even in a powerful car as a) its likely to involve shooting a fair way over any limit & b) there are too many unknowns (both known and unknown unknowns!) especially given the likelihood of a)

To be honest I think I did undertake some preaction - when I mention the double-take on it, the '2nd take' was my braking reaction. I just happened to notice the van braking at the same time and thus realising this was going to require a proper emergency stop. There is certainly no escape lane at this point, other than a steep grass verge and wall.



My car is a Peugeot 406 TD - definitely not the quickest from 0-30. It does however have a good amount of torque and provides reasonable acceleration once the Turbo is running, and above 40mph. On this particular section of the road I find that I can comfortably overtake any vehicle doing up to 50mph without requiring any kind of slingshot manouvre. Other sections however I would not risk overtaking anything over 40mph and think very carefully before going past anything under that speed. In incident #2 if I remember rightly I had just overtaken a tractor some way back and was accelerating away from it before spotting the overtakee ahead and I took the manouvre without losing momentum. I'll admit when I overtake I don't often give the notification you mention, (idea duly noted though ) although if someone is following me I will indicate right so my intentions are known and attempt to avoid an incident similar to #3



True, a treble is always going to be a bit ambitious and there are not many roads where one is possible. It was a classic frustration case that I think has been discussed in other threads - that of the 40-everywhere tailgaters, meaning it was impossible to overtake one vehicle at a time. In this incident I know I would have comfortably got past all three, mainly because they were moving so slowly and the visibility stretched a long way ahead.



I will see if I can find a Google Earth link to it but I don't think it is particularly deceptive - apart from a few trees that can slightly obscure the view at this end of the straight stretch. Been driving it almost daily for over a year now. The problem is that this whole stretch of road is about 10 miles in length with limited overtaking spots - this is the only section where overtaking is comfortable. And there are a lot of HGVs on it (limited to 40 of course ) You can overtake elsewhere but you need a lot of luck in having a clear spot and precision timing - although generally it's far too much of a risk to overtake anything above 40mph elsewhere. For the majority of it, the road can be driven at 60mph even around most of the bends so frustration is the main issue. This morning for example I was stuck a few cars back behind a Reliant Robin averaging 35mph, (and no chances to overtake). Very frustrating but this was tempered by the hilarity of watching it almost tip over everytime it tried cornering at more then 30

I do however treat all these incidents as learning experiences. And it only strengthens what I was taught before I'd even got behind the wheel of a car - treat every other driver as though they're going to do the stupidest thing imaginable.

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

Google Earth link - unfortunately full resolution doesn't quite cover the full stretch:

Link to Google Maps

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?

I honestly don't think a 'treble' need be a particularly rare event. Round here they're not difficult to do. There are even one or two places where eight in one go is quite feasible, but we are blessed with some good roads in this area. Take care though - be wary.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Unlike a dual carriageway, if someone pulls into "your" lane, when you can back off and wait your turn, on a singlew carriageway, you MUST have a route back over. As soon as one of your line of cars come out, you have lost your visibility and could so easily be hung out to dry.

IMHO planning to do any more than a double requires prior and continued assessment that none of those in your line of fire have any intention of overtaking themselves, and if this happens, you ALREADY need to know where you're going to get back in until the out-puller has got back over.

I've certainly done 15 (some super roads round here), but the crucial vital thing is that they are almost all treated as singles - each one has its own decision process.

Sometimes you can do a double or a triple, but you have to be SO SO careful that you know why they are so close that you can't treat them as singles. Often when they are close they are planning their own overtake and may well swoop out on you.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

A week or two back I managed to overtake 6 vehicles, including 'the cause' - a slow moving transporter lorry on a road far narrower and with less visibility than the A6068 where my 3 aforementioned incidents occurred, (this road again is a NSL SC). The section of road where I executed this 'hex', whilst being very rollercoaster in style with hills was virtually straight. I caught up to the slow moving precession of traffic, (travelling at ~25-30mph) whilst I was at the crest of a hill - hence had perfect vision of nearly a mile of road ahead. Could see clearly there was no oncoming traffic so was able to comfortably overtake everyone at 55-60mph, even though there was a bit of a blind dip in the road. It just required a little bit of anticipation and knowledge of the road, although external witnesses would probably think it was a maniacal manouevre.

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Why can't we just use Common Sense?