Safe Speed Forums

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Q. Are you a stupid fascist with limited reading skills or are you just a retard?

A breath of fresh air (literally and symbolically).

Excellent link, thank you.

Did they not have a number of experiments with NO traffic markings, lights or anything? In Sweden, Denmark und Northern Germany und another in Wiltshire? Where they claimed accidents reduced by a third "because it made all road users concentrate, (show patience und courtesy) observe, anticipate und plan more by gigiving more space und time" ( Sound familiar? ) The observed speeds were also lower .

But then all has gone "quiet in the proverbial snug" on this one. We never got to the last chapter as we never heard any further development or progress. Und never saw any proof of this test area in Wilts or Avon/Somerset area which press were mentioning in 2004 either.

But since then - not heard, read anything more about these experiments. Could it have been far too novel und avant-garde! Tssk! Making everyone more responiible in a pee-cee society.. Cannot have that!



But then again - it seemed to back up Paul when he say we tend to become more responsible when "nanny ist not harping on what we should und must do".

But at the moment - we live in a world where there are rules und where people expect other people to obey a red light.

Und we have an established system of painted lines on the roads und, to me, these lines are the puncutation marks in a book or piece of writing. They tell you what to expect in the way of hazards. Only some do not seem to know what the lines mean either. (Full set in "Know Your Road Signs" - must have book )

But there are markings und there are markings.....und some are absurd.

If bus or cycle lane - these will fizzle out und to beware of slightly bemused bus drivers und cyclists!

In the case of the cycle lanes in our area - just ignore und ride und drive as if they were not there as ist much much safer for everyone! Those lanes were planned by persons with one sub-normal brain cell ...

Not quite off at tangent though - the experiment was "minimalist" in terms of roadside furniture und markings as I recall reading. Und seemed to have initially interesting results - but I have never heard or read of the next chapter or conclusion in this experiment.


I wonder if anyone out there in cyber space has heard of anything more?

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Those were the days.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

There's lots of talk, and some planners are moving in that direction. The Dutchman credited with originating the idea is Monderman. Quite often there's talk about 'self-explaning roads' and 'shared space' which are closely related concepts.

Two schemes are planned for London - at Sloane Square and at Exhibition Road.

Google the emboldended words for lots of information.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's all very well highlighting the issue with traffic lights, but do the a******s at Southampton City Council care? They have their agenda, and that's that. This is why there is a road with a couple of cottages down it that has its own set of traffic lights along with right turn filter facility. Overkill...

Bridgend the same.

I firmly believe that less is more.

I think I've commented before that traffic lights should be the last resort. Unfortunately my local authority comrades seem to view them as the first!

They are great, they CONTROL the motorist.

Until the motorist starts ignoring them.

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Andrew.

I was being flippant about the marxist tendancies of my LA colleagues but you're abosolutely spot on. Like everything there is an appropriate level and an approriate application.

Theres a big roundabout near where i live, a d/c as the through route with 4 'minor' roads servicing my village and industrial estates. Conjestion is a problem at chucking out time but uits pretty free flowing all the rest of the time. We now have a roundabout festooned with lights (24hr operation) for the 1 hr in the day when there is justification. when i drive through at say 8pm its incredibly frustrating.

This is what really bugs me about the thinking behind this sort of impliementation. As engineers we are mean't to think laterally and 'outside the box' but very littkle effort seens to go into things like this.

The more inefficient traffic lights are the more times drivers will jump the lights, including the bent coppers who get away with it!

Must be frustrating working with local authorities at times. My mum is frustrated with the NHS and its vast numbers of paper pushers. Her patients used to be able to look out of the window and see countryside and rabbits, and now all they can see are slums, drug addicts, prostitutes and people stark naked having it off in the hospital doorway (true, but the managers won't admit to it).

It certainly raises some serious points. I does assume, though, that all motorists are perfect drivers. Is it not possible to argue that installing lights causes a reduction in accidents because they set clear priorities?

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The light at the end of the tunnel is the light of an oncoming train..

Well that video showed some excellent footage of an idea that I have long suspected and support, that many junctions would work better without lights.

Yes, but only if nobody assumes they have right of way. If the dominant flow "colonises" the junction, then people from side roads may have great difficulty in getting out. That was one of the main reasons for introducing traffic lights in the first place.

On quieter roads a mini-roundabout (or even a US-style 4-way stop) may be preferable to traffic lights - I certainly think highway engineers are too eager to install them.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I think it would have to be very exteme for the junction to be completly colonised, if it made clear there was no priority, perhaps with a special road surface then speeds would be low and it would take a fraction of the gap you would need in a traditional give way.

My own experiance over many years of motoring is that the "Best" junction in terms of free flow of traffic and absense of tailbacks is, indeed, a light controlled junction with broken lights!

The *Worst* is invariably one controlled by ! Though why this should be I really dont know

Indeed, I remember back in my youth when Bath (or was it Bristol? It was a long time ago!) still had a number of controlled junctions. Motorists had complained for years that the were crap at controlling the traffic and that everybody would be better off if they stayed in bed! Eventually said " OK Suit yourselves and see how you get on" And, Guess what...

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

It would need a special form of signing, though - maybe something like a 4-way Give Way.

And if, in practice, the flow in one direction outnumbered the other by 10 to 1, then I think once drivers were familiar with it, those in the dominant direction would start travelling through more quickly.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

You could well be right if the flow was 10 to 1, but if one road was so dominant then a 4-way give-way would probably not be suitable anyway - it should probably remain as a major/minor give way to avoid traffic on the busy road having to slow repeatedly. Even onto/across the busiest of roads, its never impossible to make a turn, although sometimes a bit of give and take is required.

Theres two problems here. Traffic planners too eager to stick traffic lights onto any give-way regardless of how minor the minor road is - the other being an eagerness to choose traffic lights over any other form of traffic control when one is needed.

The suitabilty of 4-way give-ways would be better the more even traffic was split, but then doesn't mean to say they couldn't work on a 3-1 or 4-1 split etc.

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Too much of our money is being wasted on supposed road safety improvements that are actually making driving more dangerous.

Less is definitely more, especially at crossroads where people without explicit instruction will generally use the common sense "first come first served" or at least "give others a chance" principle. T junctions and roundabouts still seem to suffer from a dominant flow problem though, including at unmarked junctions where rule 124 of the highway code makes it clear this shouldn't happen. I could rant on for ages about this as it really annoys me.

Systems from abroad that may be useful at some junctions are the all-way stop (something I've seen in South Africa and I have to say works extremely well); and the filter-in-turn (all-way give way if you like) that I hear is used in the Channel Islands. Obviously these aren't suitable absolutely everywhere that a traffic light, give way or mini-roundabout is used, but I can think of a good few junctions in my area alone where they would be much better than the current controls.
I think the failed traffic light should be disambiguated by making such junctions (even on roundabouts!) an all-way stop (like is made clear in the SA highway code), and unmarked junctions automatically a filter-in-turn (implicitly is now, rule 124 again).
Please see http://www.transport.gov.za/library/legislation/roadtraffic/Control_Signs_Detail.html for details on signs that could be used for all-way stop junctions.

One of the problems is pedestrian phases or pedestrian crossings of major roads. Because the wider the road, the longer it will take for a pedestrian to cross so the longer the light stays on red for such a junction.

And pedestrians object to bridges and subways unless the road is getting close to motorway standard.

It is also often the case over here that the priority of the traffic light is not as it should be, i.e. primary routes get top priority, then A-roads, then B-roads then unclassified roads and that an unclassified crossing a primary should therefore get a very low priority. If that were the case then Finchley Road would be full of green lights between Swiss Cottage and Fortune Green (generally its worst stretch) because it is a primary route crossing nothing but unclassified roads. Even Swiss Cottage itself is a junction only with B-roads.