Safe Speed Forums

What I can't work out is the justification for the current pro-LPG tax incentives. Can someone explain this (other than the obvious point we've already covered regarding the ease with which tax could currently be dodged).

As far as I see it, there is no overall environmental benefit to LPG compared with petrol - if you look at the whole process it is the same fuel simply processed differently. Also, the Gov't is clearly dependant on fuel tax as a major money spinner, so if LPG really took off they'd have to tax it one way or another. As it is hardly anyone uses it, so the problem of detecting tax dodging doesn't arise. If they positively encourage its use then they are engineering themselves into a situation where they will ultimately have to devise a method of regulating it - so why are they making a rod for their own backs by doing so?

It certainly seems like having your own domestic tank would be a good insurance policy against the government moving the goal posts and wiping out the payback on your investment.

Right now the smart move would seem to be to buy a car someone else has already converted.

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The father of a mate of mine (now deceased!) used to run his old Rover 3500 on domestic gas from his house's tank! He just made up a transfer pipe and away he went. Obviously, he couldn't get a good fill for the car because the pressure in the household tank was relatively low so his range was very limited but he did this for years. When he was away from home on a run, he'd just fill up with LPG. The only thing was, the car was DOG slow on household gas. Mind you, it was unbelieveably smooth too. You could put it in 5th at 10MPH and accelerate hard. It wouldn't actually accelerate (well, not so you'd notice!) but it was incredibly smooth. It wouldn't pink, stumble, labour, knock or anything like that, it just went (slowly)!

I don't have gas at my house but I do have kerosene! Unfortunately, the only diesel car we have is my company car and I don't think it would go down well at work if I got caught and / or trashed the engine!

As I understand it, LPG is about 105 octane, so you would imagine you'd get a (relatively) slow, late burn in a petrol engine, hence the smoothness and lack of detonation.

Presumably, if he'd advanced the ignition by a suitable amount he'd have grabbed back a fair bit of the missing power, and also reduced any risk of overheating.

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DVLA will normal record vehicle as dual fuel petrol/LPG - if not, then you can't get exemption to the congestion charge (It must really p*ss off Mr Livingstone that my 4.7 V8 4x4 pays no congestion charge)

You cannot just 'tap in' to the supply. Filling an LPG vehicle tank isn't by pressure equalisation like a refillable cigarette lighter - it requires the liquified gas to be pumped as a liquid.

You are forgetting that you consume about 10% more LPG then unleaded for the same performance/distance

Indeed. Some reports have put the 'loss' at over 20%.

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Paul Smith
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WRT the OP and sorry if this has already been said.

I BELIEVE you can claim back the tax on any fuel used for groundkeeping etc.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

potential pit falls
there are tight regulations for fuel filling stations... I presume
also you would have to get the work done by a corgi registered gas fitter
they would not sell the fittings to some one who has not got a corgi registration number.

Then you tell a couple of mates (who blackmail you) and before long there is a queue of landys and rangerovers up your street....

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Gas fittings are not impossible to get hold of: as I understand it, the legal requirement for doing gas work is that it should be done by a "competent person". That doesn't automatically mean that it must be a Corgi registered fitter. But, if you wish to do gas work for other people (not sure how that is defined, but presumably means not purely as a DIY task), you need to be Corgi registered.

(I've just checked on Screwfix, and it is possible to buy a range of gas fires, though it does say at the top that "Gas fires must be fitted by a CORGI registered installer". So you CAN buy gas fittings, even if you are supposed to have them fitted by a Corgi dude - and I'm still somewhat sceptical about that claim)

I think anyone getting up to these tricks would be very wise to be extremely cautious about who he tells. Don't tell your mates if you don't trust them implicitly.

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CORGI regulations only apply if you are being paid to do the work - you can do whatever you like for yourself, and there are certainly no restrictions on the sale of gas fittings and components. Strangely, this is no longer the situation with electrical DIY, where you are now governed by legal restrictions even if working on your own house.

So as far as I can see I could quite legally tap into my LPG system and fit a take-off point, and I can't see how there could be any legal issue with the fitting of a transfer pump and associated piping etc. The only legal issue is if I use such fuel to power a road vehicle, whereupon it would become liable for the 4.5ppl tax + VAT at 17.5% (less the 5% duty already levied on heating fuel).

But even in this case, surely this is still perfectly legal as long as I declare my usage to HM Customs & Excise? And as I said earlier I can't see any way that this is verifiable as things stand at present. How could they ever prove you were using your own fuel, as opposed to LPG or petrol that you'd bought at the filling station and paid cash for? You could install the kit and declare 1 tankful of fuel, then argue that after that you'd decided it was simpler just to buy it at the garage and pay cash to save on the paperwork.

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JT,

A everything you say is spot on.

Except for one major failing in your argument.......

In a Court of law in this country, you are supposedly innocent until proven guilty.

Excise duty and VAT are not dealt with in Courts of Law (although evasion certainly is!); it is dealt with by HMRC - whose basic premise is guilty until proven innocent. They only have to accuse you of using domestic fuel in a road vehicle and it is then for you to prove not.

Believe me, the Police would love to have the powers granted to HMRC

keni,

I live near a marina on the River Thames, where diesel is sold for around 45p/litre. Not sure what the petrol price is, but I'm sure it's lower than the road price. If you have a marine facility near you, could you buy your fuel there to escape road duty?

Probably not... "Marine diesel" is red.

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That seems to be the one thing that C&E are very hot on. Duty exempt diesel is dyed red, and they regularly set up checkpoints in hotspots (they've done it a couple of times near here, an agricultural area), where they'll "dip" your tank to make sure you're not driving on the road using red diesel.

And the fines are pretty massive - I think you may even run the risk of forfeiting your car...

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But as this is fuel for a lawnmower I doubt it would be on the road...

Can you get diesel engined lawnmowers?

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Andrew.

Ah, my mistake



Ermmm...I'm not sure how small you can make a diesel engine and have it still work OK...

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Dn't know about lawn mowers, but diesel generators are becoming popular - try this link for engine size -

http://www.generators.co.uk/diesel.php

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You CAN actually get fuel duty refunded for certain things. For example any petrol used in a boat provided for safety purposes is tax-free but you have to pay full price then apply for the refund.

Do you have an official reference for that?

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Yes but having read it through thoroughly it's not feasable for lawnmowers. It's commercial marine use only.