Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:08

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 07:35 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
This Topic relates to Safe Speed page "Germany":

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/germany.html

The page discusses the differences between UK and German roads fatality figures over recent years.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 09:48 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 08:25
Posts: 4
I noticed on this page the comparison between the number of deaths on British Roads and the number of deaths on German roads. I found the 'report' somewhat spurious.

Germany has a population of 82m and Britain has a population of 60m, an increase of around 30%.

Yet Germany had an increase of 300% in terms of road deaths in 1993. 9,000 compared to Britain's 3,000.

Yet you compare Germany's ability to reduce deaths by 41% compared to Britain's 8%, well surely by having such a ridiculously high number to begin with there was room for such vast improvements?

It is like comparing an A student to a D student and then saying that the A student is failing because the D student managed to improve their grade by 3 levels!

Well the A student isn't really going to be able to improve their grade by that much, no matter what they do.

Now Germany has managed to get their road deaths down to 5,000 deaths, a little over a 50% increase on that of the UK. Still nothing like what should be right for population size.

Let us see if Germany can continue to reduce road deaths by 40% before we start to assume that somehow their system is better then our own, or that we are failing in someway.

I am all for improvements on the road, in car saftey, and in medical care delivered to victims of accidents.

I just don't think concocting reports of this nature that can easily be seen to be false and misleading is helpful, as people dismiss the entire idea as soon as they realise that the report is using stastical analysis to 'trick' the reader into believing something that isn't neccessarily true.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:04 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
We're being critical of road safety policy.

Absolute numbers are set by culture and infrastructure, while policy is responsible for trying to change those numbers.

There are technical advances that tend to lead to long term reliable improvements without the direct assistance of policy. These factors include:

- vehicle safety improvements
- road engineering improvements
- post crash medical and rescue improvements

These gains are only slightly offset by the growth of traffic.

So if policy does nothing, we should see steady improvements. Good policy means that things improve faster. Bad policy means that things improve more slowly or not at all.

In the UK we have bad policy and as a consequence we're now 1,200 lives each year behind expectation.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:31 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 08:25
Posts: 4
It is an unrealistic expectation tho isn't it, it is an expectation based on a country that probably due to the Eastern Bloc being brought in, and the Eastern Bloc not having access to the same level of advancements in Cars, think back to 1993, only 4 years after the wall came down, and the cars we saw driving around were like something out of the 1950s. While at the same time we were driving around in Volvos and Mercedes with incredibly safe crash standards.

Now 10 years later, in the report, and those people are likely no more driving around in 1950s cars and are being brought upto date with even Skoda being a better manufacturer in terms of road saftey.

I just don't think its fair to compare to a country that had such issues related to it and expect our country to equal that level of improvement, not when we are vastly superior at road saftey in the first place.

If we had the same accident to population ratio that Germany had, then yes you would expect us to match their improvement rate, but you can't compare two unequal subjects and expect an equal measure of improvement you put one side in a position that it can never succeed in.

In my opinion, just to chuck it out here, I think Britains road saftey isn't going to be improved to match Germany's as we do not have the same issues. I think our issues are more down to poor driving, rather then driving poor cars.

As someone who is taking their test now at 33, I can say that compared to when I attempted it when I was 18, it is a LOT harder and a lot more stringent, however I don't think the test procedure was ever the problem.

I think the problem in this country is the fact that if you want to murder someone you should run them over. Since running someone over in your car is a minimal crime in this country. You are likely to not even go to prison even if it was entirely your own fault.

That is insanity, if we want to improve the quality of driving we need to start issuing appropriate punishments for people who drive badly and endanger life by doing so. Right now there is little incentive for someone who drives badly to improve their driving, because even when they are caught the fines and penalties are not strict enough.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:38 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 08:25
Posts: 4
To give you an idea of the sheer stupidity of our system.

Myself, I don't have my licence yet, if I was caught driving, I would get a 1 year ban from driving.....

Just think about that, I am not allowed to drive, so the punishment for driving while not allowed, is to be told I am not allowed to drive for a year.

Who does this make sense to?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:45 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 14:26
Posts: 4364
Location: Hampshire/Wiltshire Border
Welcome to Blairworld.

_________________
Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:33 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 08:25
Posts: 4
malcolmw wrote:
Welcome to Blairworld.


Well I think my hatred of Blair ranks up there with the best of them, however I don't think this can be laid at his door.

The idea of banning drivers who are caught driving without a licence has been something going on for years in this country.

Driving offences on the whole are somewhat odd, as the 'needs' of the driver are often an overriding concern, do they need their car for work for instance, can have a huge impact on just how badly a drunk driver is punished.

Frankly, I don't care if you can never leave your house without your car, if you are caught drunk driving, you should have your car impounded and sold at auction, your licence revoked for 5 years and be forced to retake the driving test at the end of those 5 years. Plus a great fat fine.

This for a first offense. Do it again and it should be prison time, drive while banned due to drink driving and you should serve a prison sentence.

The whole idea that because someone needs their car they can get away with just a few extra points on their licence is a pitiful joke of a sentence and hardly a deterrent at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 23:00 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 22:39
Posts: 1
I live out in Germany and remain fascinated by the difference in attitude to speed - whilst they from time to time consider clamping down this has more to do with environmental impact rather than road safety.

Having said this, there has been a very big increase in variable speed limits over the past 10 years - however excepting very bad weather or accident ahead, these are generally still minimum 120km/h.

One one of the safespeed pages quotes the 85%ile speed on a UK motorway was stated to be 85mph - I would guess that this is lower that in Germany where 90mph would appear to be the rough average on a clear road (let alone 85%).

To me this raises one key issue which would be telling in the safespeed debate - I wonder if any information exists on distribution of German accidents between Autobahns and other road types compared to that in the UK? A big difference would lead some credibility to speed limits, a lesser difference less so.

The only statistical worry being that I am guessing that the german Autobahn system is larger than that in the UK and also frequently only dual carriageway (despite derestricted speed limits).

Finally my personal (and deaply unscientific) view on the differences between here and the UK motorways is that I do not feel unsafe at 180-200km/h here but would in the UK, mainly due to the differential speed with other vehicles. I also do not personally feel I see a greater number of accidents here compared to the UK (I drive to work on the A92 out of Munich here, and used the M3 in the UK).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:40 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30
Posts: 6
This page comparing German and UK road safety must be one of worst examples of junk science that i've ever read. Lies damned lies and statistics.
I refer you to the point made above about A and D grades.

There's also the fact that 1993 around the time of Wende thus making this kind of comparison incredibly difficult because of the special circumstances which Germany found itself in that time.

However, quite probably the greatest omission from this page is the fact that in the time span quoted the number of speed cameras on German roads has increased incredibly, far more so than in the UK. Can we conclude from this that the decrease in German fatalities is because of the increase in the number of speed cameras. Of course not, that would be following the same "scientific" method as applied on this page.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:52 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
normanevanson wrote:
However, quite probably the greatest omission from this page is the fact that in the time span quoted the number of speed cameras on German roads has increased incredibly, far more so than in the UK.


Really? Evidence for that? Do speed cameras in Germany contribute to licence suspension?

normanevanson wrote:
Can we conclude from this that the decrease in German fatalities is because of the increase in the number of speed cameras. Of course not, that would be following the same "scientific" method as applied on this page.


Of course it's really rather hard to issue the same false safety messages in Germany when deristricted autobahns give the lie to to dangerous notion that the speed limit tells you how fast to drive.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:02 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30
Posts: 6
SafeSpeed wrote:
normanevanson wrote:
However, quite probably the greatest omission from this page is the fact that in the time span quoted the number of speed cameras on German roads has increased incredibly, far more so than in the UK.


Really? Evidence for that? Do speed cameras in Germany contribute to licence suspension?

normanevanson wrote:
Can we conclude from this that the decrease in German fatalities is because of the increase in the number of speed cameras. Of course not, that would be following the same "scientific" method as applied on this page.


Of course it's really rather hard to issue the same false safety messages in Germany when deristricted autobahns give the lie to to dangerous notion that the speed limit tells you how fast to drive.



Answers:

Really?

Yes, Really.

Evidence ?

No numbers unfortunately, just personal experience. The things are everywhere here and not big and painted yellow.

Do speed cameras in Germany contribute to licence suspension?

Most certainly. There's a points based system exactly the same as the UK. It's better though as its graduation is better. e.g 0-10 kph over the speed limit is 1 point and a small fine rather than 3 points and £60 (or whatever the value is today) in the UK. Of particualar interest is the red light camera. If you get caught by one and it was over 1/2 second after the light changed then the penalty is a month long driving ban and about 200 EURO fine. However people can choose when to take it, so this normally corresponds with the annual two weeks to Majorca.

<quote>
Of course it's really rather hard to issue the same false safety messages in Germany when deristricted autobahns give the lie to to dangerous notion that the speed limit tells you how fast to drive.
</quote>

When passing into a deristricted zone most people take that as "drive as fast as you can", which agrees totally with the notion that the speed limit tells you how fast to drive. Also, only 1/3 or so of the network is deresticted still. Roadworks and, increasing, noise protection limit most of the network to 120-130 kph. In Rheinland-Pfalz for example all Autobahns are resticted to 130 kph. In any case the federal government recommends a limit of 130kph and I suspect would like to make it a legal limit. However the power of the auto lobby means that would be the end of that particuar government.

Changing the subject slightly, what's incredibly evident on the Continent and particularly Germany where you have many 200kph+ drivers, is that lane dicipline is much much better than in the UK. I live in Germany and fly regularly to the UK for work. I can drive along the A4 to Cologne -Bonn airport at 150-160 kph with little problem even though it's a very busy road, but as soon as I drive on the M11 in the UK there is a long tail of 50-60mph traffic in the outside lane incredibly close to each other with nothing on the inside lane. This shows an appaling lack of driving skills.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 13:08 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:30
Posts: 2053
Location: South Wales (Roving all UK)
Lane discipline is a major problem on uk roads and one that is simply not tackled. It is being made worse by the speed kills mantra!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 14:24 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30
Posts: 6
civil engineer wrote:
Lane discipline is a major problem on uk roads and one that is simply not tackled. It is being made worse by the speed kills mantra!


Sorry but your post is terse and needs further justification. i.e. why should a push to get people to drive slower lead to worse lane dicipline? Personally I can't think of any connection.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 17:48 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 18:41
Posts: 893
normanevanson wrote:
why should a push to get people to drive slower lead to worse lane dicipline? Personally I can't think of any connection.

The problem isn't the push to get people to drive slower; it's dumbing down of the very complex subject called "road safety". Current policy concentrates on speed to the exclusion of proper factors of road safety - like observation, anticipation, space, time, and .. er .. lane discipline.

IOW, it's not the messages they push out that cause the harm; it's the messages they leave out.

_________________
Will


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 09:17 
Offline
User

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 21:06
Posts: 80
normanevanson wrote:
civil engineer wrote:
Lane discipline is a major problem on uk roads and one that is simply not tackled. It is being made worse by the speed kills mantra!


Sorry but your post is terse and needs further justification. i.e. why should a push to get people to drive slower lead to worse lane dicipline? Personally I can't think of any connection.


it is easy, if i am on a motorway and lane 1 is 60mph (hgvs) lane 2 is 69 and lane 3 is 70 it is possible i would be driving in a blind spot for a considerable ammount of time allow lane 3 to jump to 80 for an overtake prior to droping back into lane 2 and things are safer and run smoother, (my car doesn't suddenly become more of a death trap if i exceed 70)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 18:27 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:30
Posts: 2053
Location: South Wales (Roving all UK)
I've never been called terse before.

In my experience lane discipline has worsened beacause a high proportion of vehicles are now tending to drive at more or less the the same speed, say between 60 and 70 mph. Cars are alongside each other for longer and drivers seem to be becoming blind to whats actually going on around them. The whole concept of a three lane highway is being rendered useless because you are tending to have three lanes each travelling at the same speed thus causing a rolling block. People feel they need to overtake but are too scared to overtake in a swift manner incase they exceed the limit and cause instant death and destruction.

Look at the effect that an overtaking HGV has on a 2 lane highway.

Speed should have no bearing on lane discipline but I firmly believe that the policy of aggressive speed limit enforcement has caused this dumbing down of driver capability. The number of L2/3 'hoggers' is definately on the increase.

I should not be able to 'overtake' in L1 it should be impossible, however I am increasingly finding myself pulling into L1 from L3 and finding myself moving much faster.

Of course it 'shouldn't' but it does.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 20:21 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30
Posts: 6
dave the nutter wrote:
normanevanson wrote:
civil engineer wrote:
Lane discipline is a major problem on uk roads and one that is simply not tackled. It is being made worse by the speed kills mantra!


Sorry but your post is terse and needs further justification. i.e. why should a push to get people to drive slower lead to worse lane dicipline? Personally I can't think of any connection.


it is easy, if i am on a motorway and lane 1 is 60mph (hgvs) lane 2 is 69 and lane 3 is 70 it is possible i would be driving in a blind spot for a considerable ammount of time allow lane 3 to jump to 80 for an overtake prior to droping back into lane 2 and things are safer and run smoother, (my car doesn't suddenly become more of a death trap if i exceed 70)



Fine this is an arguement for driving faster, but would probably be far too complicated to police effectively. It's got nothing to do with lane dicipline though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 20:30 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30
Posts: 6
civil engineer wrote:
I've never been called terse before.

In my experience lane discipline has worsened beacause a high proportion of vehicles are now tending to drive at more or less the the same speed, say between 60 and 70 mph. Cars are alongside each other for longer and drivers seem to be becoming blind to whats actually going on around them. The whole concept of a three lane highway is being rendered useless because you are tending to have three lanes each travelling at the same speed thus causing a rolling block. People feel they need to overtake but are too scared to overtake in a swift manner incase they exceed the limit and cause instant death and destruction.

Look at the effect that an overtaking HGV has on a 2 lane highway.

Speed should have no bearing on lane discipline but I firmly believe that the policy of aggressive speed limit enforcement has caused this dumbing down of driver capability. The number of L2/3 'hoggers' is definately on the increase.

I should not be able to 'overtake' in L1 it should be impossible, however I am increasingly finding myself pulling into L1 from L3 and finding myself moving much faster.

Of course it 'shouldn't' but it does.



Well there's a new experience for you!

I was driving in California last week quite a bit. As i'm sure you're aware on multilane roads you can pass on both sides in the US. This took a little getting used to but people appeared to be keeping their distance a little better than they do in the UK. Generally traffic was moving in all lanes at 70-80mph which was not bad (note that the speed limit was 65 :roll: ) but it meant that if someone was driving slowly in the outside lane the drivers behind could still get past, _legally_, in another lane.

I totally agree about the getting in the inside lane in the UK to feel much safer, and probably go a little faster!, when everyone's three inches of the car in front in the outside lane.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:27 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:30
Posts: 2053
Location: South Wales (Roving all UK)
But my point is that I shouldn't have to go into L1 because L3 should be clear. Therefore lane discipline is poor.

This has got worse since the agrressive enforcement of speed limits.

I didn't say that driving more slowly reduces lane discipline I said that the speed kills mantra has resulted in this side effect.

The rules of the road say drive on the left, overtake on the right. This is incompatible with three lanes running at roughly equal speed. The problem is that virtually no one drives below 60 and now people are increasingly scared to drive above 70, they also know that they are not allowed to overtake on the inside so they creep past at 5mph more than the vehicle they are passing. Therefore you are creating a situation that is incompatible with the rules of the road as they currently stand.

The rules as they currently stand work when there is a wider range of traffic speeds. Enforcing speed limits as we have has simply lopped the top of the range without lowering the bottom to compensate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:38 
Offline
New User
New User

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:30
Posts: 6
It's along time since I read the highway code :o but is there not something in there about allowing overtaking on the left in dense traffic.

Anyway, if we have three lanes going between 60 and 70 then this is actually a perfectly reasonable situation and the road is actually being used in a very efficient manner. Of course if the cars had more than one person in them then that's considerably more efficient. But that, (and IMHO speed) is off the subject of lane dicipline.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.266s | 14 Queries | GZIP : Off ]